This is Success

91 EpisodesProduced by Business Insider

Revealing conversations with today's most inspiring business, sports, entertainment, and government leaders. Candid interviews with the likes of Sheryl Sandberg, LeBron James, and the founders of companies like Lyft and Tinder. Insightful stories and useful advice about how to get to the top.

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How Melinda Gates approaches the world’s toughest problems

May 24th, 2019

21:07

Melinda Gates is one of the world’s most influential philanthropists. In her new book, “The Moment of Lift,” Gates argues that empowering women is …

Why Oracle CEO Mark Hurd knew it was time to shake up the company

April 5th, 2019

26:58

Mark Hurd joined Oracle in 2010 and almost immediately dramatically changed how the tech company does business. He saw a need for a shift to cloud …

Bonus Episode: How KFC took over Christmas in Japan

December 21st, 2018

44:59

This week, an unexpected success story. Household Name's Dan Bobkoff and Sally Herships bring us the tale of how a Japanese businessman made KFC a …

IndyCar champion Danica Patrick: Why I wouldn't race in an all-female league

December 14th, 2018

15:30

Danica Patrick is the most successful female race car driver ever, but she didn't want to be a trailblazer for women. She got into Nascar and IndyCar …

Grammy-winning DJ Afrojack: Put the hours in

December 7th, 2018

31:05

Nick van de Wall, known professionally as Afrojack, is a world-famous Dutch DJ. He writes original music and collaborates with artists like Pitbull, …

The Daily Beast CEO Heather Dietrick: Bouncing back from Gawker's demise

November 30th, 2018

22:41

Heather Dietrick joined news site The Daily Beast in 2017 after rising through the ranks at the now defunct news blog Gawker. As president of Gawker, …

Master class: Making business partnerships work

November 23rd, 2018

16:48

Some of the world's top founders, executives and CEOs built their businesses with the help of their family, friends, and coworkers. In this master class episode of "This is Success," we’re revisiting some of our …

'The Da Vinci Code' author Dan Brown: How trusting my instincts made me one of the world's bestselling writers

November 16th, 2018

25:25

Dan Brown’s writing career took off in 2003 when his novel “The Da Vinci Code” became an international bestseller. Now, he's one of the world's most …

Burger King CEO Daniel Schwartz: How to develop young talent

November 9th, 2018

29:23

Daniel Schwarz leads Restaurant Brands International, the parent company of Burger King, Tim Horton’s, and Popeye’s. He started out his career at the investment firm 3G Capital. In 2013, when he was only 32, the firm’s …

General Stanley McChrystal: Why it's time to re-think leadership

November 2nd, 2018

31:11

Stanley McChrystal led the United States and its allies in the War in Afghanistan before retiring as a four-star general in 2010. He revolutionized …

Pinterest’s Ben Silbermann: How I made Pinterest a multibillion-dollar company

October 26th, 2018

28:46

Over the last eight years, Ben Silbermann has quietly built Pinterest into a global brand with 250 million active users. He's the cofounder and CEO …

Former GE and NBC exec Beth Comstock: How I made a career of embracing change

October 19th, 2018

31:03

Beth Comstock spent almost three decades at NBC and General Electric. She left GE last year after rising to one of the corporation’s highest roles: …

Refinery29 cofounder Christene Barberich: How I built an audience of millions

October 12th, 2018

29:24

Christene Barberich is the cofounder and global editor in chief of Refinery29, a media company focused on empowering women by starting conversations …

AOL founder Steve Case: How I changed the internet and investing

October 5th, 2018

34:39

When Steve Case was in college, he read a book that said a digital revolution was coming. A little over a decade later, he led that revolution as the …

'Flash Boys' star Brad Katsuyama: Why I started IEX and took on Wall Street

September 28th, 2018

31:11

Brad Katsuyama never considered himself a maverick, or entrepreneur. He had a cushy job at the Royal Bank of Canada, but he became alarmed the more he learned about high frequency trading, where computers can trade a …

Promoter and restaurateur Larry Morrow: How I learned to bet on myself

September 21st, 2018

30:42

If you want to know where to go and who to talk to in New Orleans, Morrow’s your guy. After he dropped out of college, the 27-year old entrepreneur …

Yuengling sisters Jen and Wendy: Taking over the family's beer

September 14th, 2018

27:16

Jen and Wendy Yuengling are two of the four sisters in charge of the Yuengling beer company. Their father, Dick, took over the family business back in 1985. He was the one who turned it from a local brewery into …

“Say Yes to the Dress” designer Pnina Tornai: How I bounced back from ‘the toughest time of my life’

September 7th, 2018

29:25

Pnina Tornai never imagined she’d become one of the world’s most sought-after bridal gown designers. She spent most of her childhood dreaming of becoming an actress, but by the time she was in her early twenties, that …

Harry’s cofounder Jeff Raider: How I changed the way men shop

August 31st, 2018

25:55

Jeff Raider is the cofounder and co-CEO of the razor company Harry’s, an online subscription service that sends high-end razors to customers at a low cost. The company raised $112 million earlier this year to move the …

Master Class: How to measure success

August 24th, 2018

13:32

Success means something different to everyone, including the world's top company founders, executives, and CEOs. In this Master Class episode of "This is Success," we revisit some of the most interesting answers to the …

Drybar founder Alli Webb: How I turned my side hustle into a blowout business

August 17th, 2018

30:29

Alli Webb is the founder and visionary behind Drybar, the hugely popular blowout salon that took a regional trend mainstream. Today, Drybar is a …

Comedy icon Caroline Hirsch: How I brought standup to the masses

August 10th, 2018

30:30

Caroline Hirsch has discovered or helped develop some of comedy’s biggest names—people like Jerry Seinfeld, Jon Stewart, Dave Chappelle, and Michelle …

Nasdaq CEO Adena Friedman: How I made my voice heard

August 3rd, 2018

29:24

Adena Friedman has the top job at Nasdaq, one of the world's biggest stock exchanges. Early in her career, she learned how to impress her bosses by taking initiative, and when she became the boss, she found ways to make …

Special Episode: TGI Fridays was the 'Tinder of the 1960s'

July 27th, 2018

41:53

This week, we feature the first episode of Business Insider's new podcast, "Household Name," which you can find on Apple Podcasts or your favorite …

"Million Dollar Listing" star Ryan Serhant: How I went from struggling actor to real estate mogul

July 20th, 2018

31:53

Ryan Serhant moved to New York City when he was 22, hoping to launch a career on Broadway. When that dream didn’t pan out, he found a different route into show business—as a real estate agent. Serhant is now the star of …

Business coach Marie Forleo: How I invented my dream job

July 13th, 2018

29:01

Marie Forleo is a life and business coach with hundreds of thousands of followers online. When she first started giving strangers advice almost 20 …

Skinnygirl CEO Bethenny Frankel: How ‘drunk people acting crazy’ helped me build my brand

July 6th, 2018

30:02

You may know Bethenny Frankel from her lead role on the "Real Housewives of New York." But her name is also the driving force behind an expanding …

GOAT CEO Eddy Lu: How my failed startups set me up for the Greatest Of All Time

June 29th, 2018

24:12

For more than a decade, Eddy Lu tried to find the next big thing. Golf apparel, 99-cent smartphone apps, Japanese desserts — they all flopped, but he …

Girl Scouts CEO Sylvia Acevedo: Why I’m not worried about the Boy Scouts becoming co-ed

June 22nd, 2018

26:37

Sylvia Acevedo is a trailblazer in business and tech. She was one of the first Hispanic students to get a master's in engineering from Stanford, she worked for years as a Silicon Valley executive, and on top of that, …

Bestselling author David Sedaris: Finding meaning in the mundane

June 15th, 2018

27:02

David Sedaris built a career by sharing his life through essays. He writes about everything from the death of family members to his love of picking up garbage, and his performances are both heart wrenching and …

Who, What, Wear's Katherine Power: Why I turned down my dream job to build an empire

June 8th, 2018

26:02

Katherine Power worked for years to land her dream job at Condé Nast. But when an offer came, she turned it down. Instead, she joined with a friend to start what became Clique Brands. It includes a mix of companies, …

Quicken Loans founder Dan Gilbert: From buying the Cleveland Cavaliers to rebuilding Detroit

June 1st, 2018

24:59

Dan Gilbert runs a Midwestern empire. In Michigan, he founded Quicken Loans, which made him a billionaire. Now he’s trying to rebuild downtown Detroit. But you may know him as the owner of the Cleveland Cavaliers, …

Ellevest founder Sallie Krawcheck: What I learned as "the most powerful woman on Wall Street"

May 25th, 2018

26:45

Sallie Krawcheck has run Smith Barney, Merrill Lynch Wealth Management, US Trust, and Citi Private Bank, and was Citi’s CFO before that. Now she runs Ellevest, an investment firm that helps women create wealth. She may …

OkCupid founder Sam Yagan: How 3 lucky moments made my career

May 18th, 2018

28:53

Sam Yagan knows he’s been lucky. He tells us that one of the luckiest moments of his life was meeting his college roommates. Together, they built a …

Retired SEAL Jocko Willink: How I learned to be a leader in the Navy

May 11th, 2018

30:25

For Jocko Willink, becoming a Navy SEAL was just like any other career. Willink was the commander of SEAL Team 3, Task Unit Bruiser. It was the most highly decorated US special operations unit of the Iraq War — and the …

Amazon founder Jeff Bezos: How I built an empire

May 4th, 2018

49:41

Business Insider's US Editor-in-Chief Alyson Shontell was in Berlin last week for the 3rd annual Axel Springer Award, which was an evening honoring Amazon founder and CEO Jeff Bezos. Bezos sat down with Axel Springer …

Duolingo CEO Luis von Ahn: How I became a crowdsourcing pioneer

April 27th, 2018

29:13

If you’ve verified you’re not a robot online, you’ve used something Luis von Ahn has created. He tells "Success! How I Did It," that he doesn’t read stories about himself, and he’s probably the only CEO our host, Rich …

Audible CEO Don Katz: How I built a storytelling tech company and sold it to Amazon

April 20th, 2018

26:41

Don Katz sounds more like a college English professor than a tech CEO: he’s obsessed with literature and writing. And it’s why he started Audible, …

Media mogul Tina Brown: How I created and led world class teams

April 13th, 2018

30:09

Tina Brown gets things done. She’s been a leader since her mid-20s, and she’s built the teams that transformed Vanity Fair and the New Yorker. She also created The Daily Beast. Brown grew up in England and became a …

Planned Parenthood's Cecile Richards: My career as a 'troublemaker'

April 6th, 2018

28:48

Cecile Richards has never shied away from controversy. In seventh grade, she got sent to the principal’s office for protesting the Vietnam War. As President of Planned Parenthood, she defended the organization in a …

Vimeo CEO Anjali Sud: How I've found success leaving my comfort zone

March 30th, 2018

25:19

Anjali Sud has always sought opportunities that seem intimidating. That inspired her to leave Flint, Michigan at 14 for the elite Massachusetts …

Edible Arrangements founder Tariq Farid: A fruit basket no one knew they wanted turned into a half billion dollar business

March 23rd, 2018

26:48

Tariq Farid was only 13 when his family moved from Pakistan to Connecticut. He started working at a flower shop to make money, and he opened his own at 17. Farid is the founder and CEO of Edible Arrangements. He …

Astronaut Scott Kelly: How I went from being a bad student to breaking records in space

March 16th, 2018

23:51

Scott Kelly spent a year on board the International Space Station. During that time, his identical twin brother Mark — who's also an astronaut — was on Earth. Since then, scientists have been watching how differently …

Startup founder Nat Turner: How I negotiated a $2 billion deal while my wife was in labor, and how breeding snakes turned me into an entrepreneur

March 9th, 2018

23:17

Nat Turner was 24 when he sold his first company for $80 million. He sold his next one this past February – this time, it was for $2 billion. Nat …

XPRIZE's Peter Diamandis: How I'm helping humans live longer, and sending more people to space

March 2nd, 2018

29:24

Peter Diamandis has made a career of fulfilling his childhood dreams. He’s the man behind companies that make science fiction come true: The XPRIZE, …

Facebook cofounder Chris Hughes: how a walk with Mark Zuckerberg changed my life, and why I want millions of Americans to get free cash

February 23rd, 2018

22:04

Chris Hughes is a Facebook cofounder, and author of the new book "Fair Shot." Hughes worked at Facebook for just three years, but his 2% stake in the company made him $500 million. Hughes' new book reflects on the …

Craigslist founder Craig Newmark: How I learned not to be a jerk. PLUS: KPMG chairman Lynne Doughtie: How I became one of the few top female CEOs

February 16th, 2018

26:36

This week, we have a double header from the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland: Craigslist founder Craig Newmark and KPMG chairman and CEO Lynne Doughtie.

Doughtie spent her entire career working her way up the …

Salesforce President and Deloitte Consulting CEO: How 2 powerful women beat gender pay gaps to reach the top

February 9th, 2018

24:35

Cindy Robbins started at Salesforce 12 years ago, and worked her way up the ranks before getting a life-changing phone from CEO Marc Benioff. Janet …

Microsoft's Peggy Johnson: How I became the 'deal maker in chief,' leading the $26 billion LinkedIn acquisition and 40+ investments

February 2nd, 2018

22:51

Peggy Johnson gets paid millions to help make Microsoft billions. Her actual title is executive vice president for business development, and she's helped lead over 40 investments with Microsoft Ventures. One deal was …

Shark Tank star Daymond John: How I built a $350 million fashion brand out of my mom's house in Queens, became a TV star, and learned to go beyond 'chasing money'

January 26th, 2018

25:49

Entrepreneur and Shark Tank star Daymond John. John grew up in Queens, New York, where he dreamed of making clothes for hip hop stars. He turned his mom's house into a factory, used graffiti as marketing, and talked his …

Barstool Sports CEO Erika Nardini: How I beat out 74 men to land my dream job, and lost a ton of friends in the process

January 19th, 2018

28:30

For a lot of her career, Erika Nardini worked at big companies: Microsoft, AOL, even Fidelity Investments. Then she took a risk by becoming CEO of …

Walmart.com CEO Marc Lore: How I sold my 1st startup for $6 million, 2nd startup for $550 million and 3rd startup for $3+ billion

January 12th, 2018

30:37

Marc Lore's first big startup sold diapers, and it was bought by Amazon for more than $500 million. Instead of celebrating, Lore felt a let down. …

Former Gilt Groupe CEO Susan Lyne: How I took down Patty Hearst, took over Martha Stewart's empire while she was in prison, and now empower women entrepreneurs

January 5th, 2018

32:19

Susan Lyne dropped out of college and lived in a commune. She wrote for magazines and founded her own movie magazine. She green-lighted Lost, Grey's …

Startup founders: The one key moment that led our companies to take off

December 29th, 2017

10:31

For startups on the path to success, there's often one moment or decision that catapults them from obscurity to the big leagues. This year on "

Buddhist monk Matthieu Ricard: How I went from a PhD in genetics to being called "the happiest man in the world"

December 22nd, 2017

29:07

On this episode, a different view of how to "make it." Business Insider’s senior strategy reporter Richard Feloni spoke with Buddhist monk and bestselling author Matthieu Ricard while he was promoting his new book …

Venus Williams: How I overcame personal and physical challenges to stay at the top of my game for 20 years

December 15th, 2017

21:13

Venus Williams is one of the most dominant players in tennis, and has been for over two decades. A tennis prodigy who turned pro at age 14, she’s …

Max Levchin: How I cofounded and built PayPal into a payments monster after 6 pivots

December 8th, 2017

30:03

Max Levchin cofounded PayPal with Peter Thiel and built it into a Silicon Valley success with the help of Reid Hoffman and Elon Musk. They took it …

BONUS: Reporters Jodi Kantor, Irin Carmon, and Kim Masters: How we exposed harassment and started a national reckoning

December 6th, 2017

29:42

Business Insider's US Editor-in-Chief Alyson Shontell sits down with three of the journalists whose reporting led to a national reckoning with sexual harassment. Jodi Kantor is one of two New York Times reporters who …

Megyn Kelly: How I battled sexual harassment at Fox and a year of Trump trolls, then settled for more at NBC

December 1st, 2017

30:22

Megyn Kelly was already a rising star at Fox News when she hit the big time by taking on a Presidential candidate named Donald Trump. Then, we learned Kelly had been sexually harassed by Fox News CEO Roger Ailes. He was …

Master Class: How to become a successful leader

November 24th, 2017

11:08

It takes a lot of hard work to become an effective leader. In this Master Class episode of "Success! How I Did It," top executives and tech CEOs …

Tim Ferriss: The human guinea pig doesn’t want to be your role model

November 17th, 2017

26:23

Tim Ferriss first found fame with his 2007 book "The 4-Hour Workweek." After taking a break from writing in 2012, he became an accidental podcast star with "The Tim Ferriss Show," which is approaching 200 million …

LinkedIn's Reid Hoffman: How I went from board games to the board room

November 10th, 2017

26:44

People talk about Reid Hoffman as the philosopher of Silicon Valley. That’s by design. Before starting his career as an investor and master of social networks, he planned to be a "public intellectual." Hoffman says his …

'Shark Tank' star Barbara Corcoran: How I went from a 10-kid household and over 20 odd jobs to being a real estate mogul

November 3rd, 2017

30:46

Before finding fame on "Shark Tank," and before building her New York real-estate empire, Barbara Corcoran was one of 10 kids in a working-class New Jersey family. If nothing else, she learned how to take a risk. She …

Fox News' Dana Perino: How I went from Wyoming to the White House, and then got a hit show on Fox News

October 27th, 2017

32:00

Dana Perino didn’t crave the limelight. Then she landed one of the most public jobs — as George W. Bush's White House press secretary. Now Perino is at Fox News, where her star has been rising in the wake of …

Zillow and Hotwire founder: How I led two companies back from crises

October 20th, 2017

29:18

Spencer Rascoff knows a lot about running a company during a crisis. He’s the CEO of Zillow, which he ran through the housing crash. That was after …

Lyft's John Zimmer: How I went from sleeping on a friend's couch eating frozen Trader Joe's meals to running a $7.5 billion company

October 13th, 2017

27:49

John Zimmer is the cofounder and president of the ride-hailing service Lyft, which has faced a fierce competitor in Uber since the beginning. Lyft is …

Chef Jose Andres: How I became a celebrity chef, won 2 Michelin stars, and took on Donald Trump

October 6th, 2017

29:47

When Chef Jose Andres arrived in the United States 26 years ago, few Americans had heard of tapas. Since then, Americans have warmed up to Spanish small plates and Andrés has gone on to lead 26 restaurants and win two …

Life coach Tony Robbins: How I came from a broken household to build a $6 billion empire, and coach business legends like Marc Benioff and Paul Tudor Jones

September 29th, 2017

24:34

Tony Robbins has used his commanding presence to build a career as the world's most famous life and business coach, helping people like President …

Hearst's Joanna Coles: How a dogged reporter became Editor-in-Chief of Cosmo and Snap's board member

September 22nd, 2017

26:55

Joanna Coles is the Chief Content Officer at Hearst, and was the Editor-in-Chief of Cosmo and Marie Claire before that. She's also the executive …

EX-CIA Director John Brennan: How I rose through the ranks and ran top-secret missions for multiple presidents

September 15th, 2017

29:44

John Brennan is the former director of the CIA, a position he held until this past January. Now he’s attempting to retire for the second time. In …

Group Nine CEO: How I turned an email for 'civilized bros' into a $600 million empire

September 1st, 2017

30:21

Ben Lerer spent his 20s co-founding Thrillist, a local recommendation site for “civilized bros.” He's now the CEO of digital holding company Group …

Fortune 500 execs: How to set yourself up for success in your 20s and 30s

August 22nd, 2017

11:05

In this Master Class episode of "Success! How I Did It," Fortune 500 CEOs and top executives reveal what it takes to reach the top, and how to set yourself up for eventual business world domination in your 20s and 30s. …

PayPal CEO: How I went from a $14,000 salary to running 3 public companies

August 16th, 2017

29:43

Dan Schulman is the CEO of PayPal. But his career began at AT&T, where he was paid an annual salary of about $14,000 a year. He rose through the …

John Sculley: How I built Pepsi and Apple, and am now disrupting the healthcare industry

August 9th, 2017

30:30

John Sculley is the former CEO of Pepsi and Apple. He was brought on to be Steve Jobs’ adult supervision, and to teach him marketing. But the job was …

Investor Jason Calacanis: How I was broke, then rich, then broke, and now have $100 million

August 3rd, 2017

28:54

Jason Calacanis founded Silicon Alley Reporter, Weblogs Inc, Mahalo, and Inside.com. He made an early bet on Uber that paid off, and he’s now an investor and has his own syndicate. But he had a hard time getting there, …

Steve Ballmer: How I became Microsoft's CEO then bought the LA Clippers

July 25th, 2017

34:09

Steve Ballmer spent more than 30 years at Microsoft where he rose to become CEO. But his decade at the helm was full of challenges, ranging from the …

Box CEO: I built a $2.5 billion company and took it public at age 29, but it was insanely hard

July 13th, 2017

22:20

Aaron Levie is co-founder and CEO of Box, a cloud-based file sharing service. He took Box public when he was 29, and now it has a $2.5 billion market cap. But it took a lot of work to get there, including sleepless …

Robinhood CEO: How I was rejected by 75 investors but still built a $1.3 billion app

July 6th, 2017

22:41

Vlad Tenev is co-founder and co-CEO of Robinhood, a mobile app that lets you trade stocks free of charge. It's only a few years old and millennials …

ClassPass founder: How I built a $470 million fitness craze, then resigned as CEO

June 19th, 2017

29:18

Payal Kadakia is the founder of ClassPass, a fitness class booking company that can be found in 39 cities around the world. ClassPass has generated more than 30 million class reservations since 2013 and its new …

Dropbox CEO: How I built a $10 billion company in my 20s

June 12th, 2017

25:44

Drew Houston is the founder and CEO of DropBox, an online file storage and sharing service that just turned ten years old. DropBox has grown to over …

BuzzFeed and Huffington Post founder Jonah Peretti: How I turned an Instant Messenger bot into a $1.5 billion media empire

June 1st, 2017

40:05

Jonah Peretti is the founder and CEO of BuzzFeed, a digital media empire that started as an Instant Messenger bot. The bot spotted trending links across the web and sent them to groups of friends. Peretti grew that into …

AOL CEO Tim Armstrong: Career secrets I used to reach the top

May 26th, 2017

32:30

AOL CEO Tim Armstrong has taken a series of smart risks throughout his career that have helped him reach the top. He began as a college student in …

LeBron James: What I eat, how I lead and how I win

May 11th, 2017

25:37

LeBron James is arguably the greatest basketball player of all time. He sat down with Business Insider's US Editor-in-Chief, Alyson Shontell, for a video interview to discuss his team's epic comeback in the 2016 NBA …

Sheryl Sandberg: How to become resilient after a tragedy

May 5th, 2017

22:20

Sheryl Sandberg is the Chief Operating Officer of Facebook. Two years ago, her husband Dave Goldberg suddenly died at age 47. She founder herself in …

Gary Vaynerchuk: How I became a social media star and built big businesses

May 2nd, 2017

34:33

Gary Vaynerchuk has millions of followers on social media, and has built two businesses to tens of millions in revenue. The "Planet of the Apps" …

About.com: How CEO Neil Vogel is saving the site by killing it

April 25th, 2017

30:46

Neil Vogel is the CEO of About.com, a beloved website from the 1990s. He's trying to modernize it by doing something that sounds crazy: He's shutting down the site, and launching a half dozen new brands in its place. …

TheSkimm: How Carly Zakin and Danielle Weisberg built an email empire

April 21st, 2017

32:28

TheSkimm is a morning email newsletter that tells 5 million subscribers — including Oprah — the news they need to know. But it was not easy for founders Carly Zakin and Danielle Weisberg to get TheSkimm off the ground. …

Warby Parker: How to run a billion-dollar brand with 2 CEOs

April 13th, 2017

32:33

Dave Gilboa and Neil Blumenthal met while getting their MBAs at Wharton. They cofounded a glasses retailer, Warby Parker, and couldn't decide who …

Scott Belsky: How a founder built a $150 million company and turned half of his employees into millionaires

March 17th, 2017

45:18

Scott Belsky began his career at Goldman Sachs. But he didn't like it, so he saved $18,000 and bootstrapped a startup, Behance. He later sold it to …

Bustle and Bleacher Report founder: How I built 2 startups worth $200+ million by age 33

February 24th, 2017

36:50

Bryan Goldberg, 33, is the founder of Bustle, a digital-media startup with 55 million monthly readers that covers everything from politics to "The …

Tinder founder: What it's really like to build a $3 billion startup in your 20s

February 14th, 2017

34:55

Sean Rad, the founder of dating app Tinder, knew right away he had a hit app on his hands. In an interview with Business Insider Editor-in-Chief Alyson Shontell, Rad discusses the highs and lows of building a business. …

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