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Tech Lead Journal

67 EpisodesProduced by Henry SuryawirawanWebsite

Great technical leadership requires more than just great coding skills. It requires a variety of other skills that are not well-defined, and they are not something that we can fully learn in any school or book. Hear from experienced technical leaders sharing their journey and philosophy for building… read more


#44 - Team Topologies - Manuel Pais

“Practices and principles are necessary and useful, but they should be informed by what the constraints are in the first place. We need to acknowledge the constraints, and then build and decide on practices and principles based on that."

Manuel Pais is the co-author of “Team Topologies” and a DevOps thought leader, focusing on team interactions, delivery practices, and accelerating flow. In this episode, Manuel shared great insights from his book “Team Topologies”, starting from highlighting some constraints that organizations typically face, such as Conway’s Law and cognitive load. Manuel then explained the 4 fundamental team topologies and how they are addressing those constraints. Manuel also shared about the Team API concept as well the 3 core interaction modes, which inform how teams should interact with each other in order to improve the overall flow within the business. Finally, Manuel shared some advice on how leaders can start implementing these ideas within their organizations.

Listen out for:

  • Career Journey - [00:04:47]
  • Team Topologies - [00:07:00]
  • Challenges with Organization Chart - [00:08:58]
  • Measuring Flow - [00:11:54]
  • Conway’s Law - [00:14:57]
  • How to Use Conway’s Law - [00:18:10]
  • Breaking Monolith into Microservices - [00:21:15]
  • Cognitive Load - [00:23:57]
  • 4 Fundamental Team Topologies - [00:27:33]
  • Team API - [00:34:55]
  • 3 Interaction Modes - [00:37:57]
  • Advice to Align with Team Topologies - [00:42:41]
  • 3 Tech Lead Wisdom - [00:48:13]


Manuel Pais’s Bio
Manuel Pais is the co-author of “Team Topologies: organizing business and technology teams for fast flow”. Recognized by TechBeacon as a DevOps thought leader, Manuel is an independent IT organizational consultant and trainer, focused on team interactions, delivery practices and accelerating flow. Manuel is also a LinkedIn instructor on Continuous Delivery.

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