An in-depth examination of the culture and politics of Christian Nationalism and Evangelicalism by two ex-evangelical ministers-turned-religion professors. If you have ever wondered what social and historical forces led white evangelicals to usher Donald Trump into the White House this is the show f… read more
The Bible is full of ravenous violence, sexually explicit scenes, sexual assault, murder, and more. But somehow it's considered the universal good …
Brad and Dan begin by gauging the right-wing reactions to the death of Henry Kissinger. They then compare these, and the hallmarks of Kissinger's life, to those of Rosalynn Carter, who was buried this week in Plains, Ga.
“Why be so hard on conservative Christianity, to the point of dismissing it entirely? Why not fix it?” This is a real question we receive, and it’s a fair question. Can conservative Christianity be “fixed”? Or are the …
Beginning in the 1960s, stakeholders on the American Right began astro-turfing conservative student organizations in order to counter the challenges …
Brad is joined by Congressperson Jared Huffman, who represents California's 2nd District. Rep. Huffman is the only member of the House who is not affiliated with a religious tradition. He started the Freethought Caucus …
This week Dan talks about the popular praise and worship song, “Give Thanks With a Grateful Heart.” What is the message of this song? Written as a …
After two years in the White House, an aging and increasingly unpopular Ronald Reagan looked like a one-term president, but in 1983 something …
Brad begins by discussing the history of Murfreesboro, TN, where a city ordinance banned homosexuality in public. As Brad recounts, this isn't the first time the city has been in the news. A decade ago, citizens tried …
We’ve all had the experience of sitting around a Thanksgiving table sharing what we’re grateful or thankful for. But why do some people seem to …
The massive bronze sculpture of Confederate General Robert E. Lee, in uniform, astride his horse Traveller, stood in a downtown Charlottesville park …
Brad and Dan begin by discussing the porn-accountability app that Speaker Mike Johnson uses with his son. They explain how apps like these are a feature in evangelical circles and how they are a part of the purity …
“Evangelicalism isn’t just Christian nationalism. There are also a lot of great individuals who are evangelicals but not Christian nationalists.” We hear that a lot. But is it as plausible a concern as it sounds? And …
Has fascism arrived in America? In this pioneering book, Gavriel D. Rosenfeld and Janet Ward have gathered experts to survey the history of fascism in the United States. Although the US established a staunch …
Dan and Brad begin by recounting the melting of the Robert E. Lee statue in Charlottesville - and the right-wing reactions to it. This leads to a lengthy discussion of the efforts to keep Trump off the ballot in CO and …
Brad speaks to two survivors of IHOP-KC about the abuse they endured there, the dynamics of the community, and healing with others.
This week allegations emerged about Mike Bickle, founder of IHOP-KC, a central hub in …
“Rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft.” So reads the King James Bible. What does this verse mean? And why does this translation of the verse still …
Brad speak with Dr. Matt Taylor, a foremost scholar on the New Apostolic Reformation. Matt takes Brad through all of the connections new Speaker of …
Brad and Dan use the bulk of this episode to introduce listeners to the Christian nationalism of new Speaker of the House Mike Johnson. They go over …
Dan gives a brief history of halloween and the ways it has morphed through pre-Christian and Christian history. He then asks: What does it mean when religious people appeal to “God’s will”? What kind of work does this …
Brad looks upstream from the talking heads to the intellectuals on the American Right who are normalizing fascist ideas. He points to the phenomenon of the Red Caesar as the framework for how these intellectuals call …
Fascism is Our New Normal III is coming tomorrow. In the meantime, enjoy the first episode of the new Axis Mundi Media series On God's Campus.
Chloe, …
Brad and Dan begin by discussing some of the terrible reactions to the situation in Israel on the part of American politicians and the deadly …
We’ve probably all heard the phrase “playing god,” and many of us might even have been accused of playing god. But what does it mean when someone …
Brad draws on the work of Hannah Arendt to explain how fascism relies on ordinary people operating within a cruel system. He uses two clips - one from Fox News and the other from a right-wing show - to reveal how …
Dan and Brad provide thoughts on the news from Israel and reflect on what its implications here in the USA.
Subscribe now to American Idols: …
During the height of the Covid pandemic, a certain kind of Christian community opposed to Covid mitigation practices like mask-wearing, social distancing, and (eventually) receiving vaccines advanced a position of …
On God's Campus, produced by REAP and Axis Mundi Media, is a podcast that uncovers a hidden educational ecosystem in which taxpayer-funded religious …
In light of recent events we are re-releasing Dan's interview with Chrissy Stroop, who helps explain the Evangelical obsession with Israel. One of the main themes is how Evangelicals profess love for Israel based on …
Brad begin with an analytical discussion of political nihilism in order to provide a window into the chaos in congress created by the ouster of …
What does it mean when a Christian describes someone as “God-fearing”? Is this a good thing? And what does it imply about their view of God, or human relationships with God, or the consequences of NOT being …
Brad zooms in on Biden's trip to Arizona and Trump's rhetoric about killing General Milley to analyze the normalization of fascist politics in the …
Dan begins this episode with by discussing new polling that reveals how GOP voters see Trump as person of faith. This leads to an investigation into …
What’s going on when someone tells us they need to “speak the truth in love”? How is this similar to someone who assures us they’re being critical because “they’re our friend,” or “because they care for us”? How is the …
Brad is attending to the birth of his second child. So, enjoy the first episode of the new Axis Mundi series by Andrew Whitehead. In the opening episode, Andrew defines Christian nationalism, and uses his personal …
On the first segment Dan and Brad begrudgingly discuss Lauren Boebrert's Beetlejuice scandal - and what it reveals about the Christian nationalist …
“There’s no morality without God.” That is a claim made by many Christians. But it’s also a claim with a cultural hold that extends beyond …
A special presentation of Inform Your Resistance: Abortion abolitionists: who are they, what drives them, and how do their tactics overlap with those …
Brad begins by tracing the extreme Christian nationalism of the 2020s to the years following 9/11. The thesis: the ways that Republican politicians …
“Let Go and Let God”
Maybe you’ve heard the admonition to “let go and let God.” Maybe it provides some comfort. Maybe it’s frustrating. Maybe it makes you angry. What does it mean, and why can it provoke such a range of …
Ahead of the premier of American Idols next week, Brad talks with Dr. Andrew Whitehead about the podcast series, his new book, and why Christian …
In her new book, 24/7 News: Cable Television and the Fragmenting of America From Watergate to Fox News, Dr. Kathryn Cramer Brownell, Associate Professor of History at Purdue University, shows how cable became an …
Brad and Dan begin by discussing the fact that Trump may be kept off the ballot in some states. The 14th amendment prohibits those who have "engaged …
“It’s In the Code.” But in what sense is a code something public and shared? And in what sense is a code something secret, communicated only the select few “in the know?” Dan explores these issues in this episode, …
Brad talks to Rev. Nathan Empsall, the Executive Director of Faithful America. They discuss the Reawaken America Tour, which just relaunched in Las …
How does a racially fueled tragedy tie into the policies of a state governor? And what sinister patterns can we uncover when we trace the origins of …
“You Have to Get ‘Em Lost to Get ‘Em Saved”
What can it possibly mean when some Christians say that you “have to get people lost before you can get them saved?” What does it mean to be “lost”? What does it mean to be …
Brad speaks with Dr. Robert P. Jones, President of PRRI and author of the new book The Hidden Roots of White Supremacy: And the Path to a Shared American Future.
Beginning with contemporary efforts to reckon with the …
Brad and Dan discuss three main stories from the week:
We say someone is “speaking in code,” or talk about “codes,” or discuss things that are “in the code?” But what do we mean by “code?” And when someone uses coded language, do they know they’re doing that? When we talk …
Brad speaks to Rachel Laser, President and CEO of Americans United for Separation of Church and State. They discuss AU's lawsuit with the ACLU and FFRF in the case of the state of Oklahoma agreeing to send taxpayer …
On a solo Friday, Dan begins by discussing the sprawling indictment of Trump and his co-conspirators in Fulton County, Georgia. This indictment …
What does it mean when a church is “non-denominational”? What is the relation between non-denominational churches and established denominations? In what ways does the designation of being non-denominational encode …
Brad analyzes the new hit song, "The Rich Men North of Richmond," which has become an anthem for right-wing populism.
Brad and Dan begin by discussing the latest news from SCOTUS - Clarence Thomas's many vacations with right-wing billionaires - by framing the entire …
Within a certain part of the American Christian subculture, it’s common to speak of people who are “baby Christians.” But what does that mean? Is it …
Capitalizing on current, widespread anti-China sentiment in the United States, lawmakers in nearly 30 states have proposed or have passed legislation
Brad and Dan discuss the details, reactions, and takeaways to the Trump indictment by Jack Smith.
“Lots of people miss salvation by 18 inches—the distance between the head and the heart.” This (and statements like it) is a phrase that has long …
Brad is joined by Julian Walker and Matthew Remski, two of the hosts of the Conspirituality podcast and co-authors of the new book, Conspirituality: …
Brad and Dan begin by discussing the new Florida school curriculum that forces teachers to tell students that enslaved people received some benefit …
Why do so many on the Christian, cultural, and political right receive such obvious pleasure in enacting policies and legislation that harm others? …
Brad is scheduled to speak on August 26th at an interfaith event held by the Metropolex Atheists. However, the city of Fort Worth refuses to allow …
Brad and Dan begin by discussing a bombshell report at the New York Times outlining Trump's plans to completely transform the executive branch if he becomes president again. Brad analyzes how the playbook he and his …
Why do those on the religious and cultural right often describe transgender or gender-nonconforming identity as a mental illness? What is the …
Brad speaks with veteran journalist Sarah Stankorb about her new book Disobedient Women. Disobedient Women is not just a look at the women who have used the internet to bring down the religious power structures that …
Brad and Dan begin by discussing the fallout from the 303 Creative SCOTUS case in the form of a hair stylists who claims they will not serve anyone …
The language of “religious freedom” is often used as a code for the preservation of traditional White Christian privilege in the US. But it is also …
Last weekend Moms for Liberty held their national conference in Philadelphia. Annika Brockschmidt attended the conference. She talks to Brad about the protests outside the conference, conversations with rank and file …
Brad begins with a long discussion of the Moms for Liberty conference in Philadephia. He centers his comments on the long history of "housewife …
Last week SCOTUS ruled that race cannot be used in the college admissions process. Many in and outside of the Asian American community see the ruling …
Brad analyzes the recent SCOTUS decision ruling that a website designer has the right to refuse to create websites for gay couples. It's the latest …
What does the SCOTUS decision on affirmative action have to do with the Don't Say Gay bills, book bans, and attacks on school curricula all over the …
The language of “religious freedom,” “religious freedom restoration” laws, and so forth makes many of us uncomfortable. What does this language mean? Who deploys it? For what reasons? Where did it come from? In this …
Jon Ward's life is divided in half: two decades inside the evangelical Christian bubble and two decades outside of it.
In Testimony, Ward tells the engaging story of his upbringing in, and eventual break from, an …
Brad and Dan dedicate this episode to discussing the state of reproductive rights, activism, and law one year since the overturning of Roe v. Wade. Brad begins by going through the numbers on support for abortion in the …
In this week’s episode, Dan explores and explains the practice of infant “dedications,” in contrast with the more familiar practice of infant baptism. Why do some churches reject infant baptism, but practice infant …
Brad shares the recording of a roundtable he hosted at Americans United's Summit for Religious Freedom. He asked Andrew Seidel, Katherine Stewart, and Rob Boston what they are worried about in the year ahead - and what …
Brad and Dan begin by discussing the reactions to Trump's arraignment in Miami - from congresspeople calling for war, to Kari Lake talking about 75 million Americans with guns, to megachurch pastors exhorting their …
Why do conservative American Christians and Christian nationalists use the rhetoric of being “attacked” and “persecuted”? Why do they perceive themselves to be “suffering” in the contemporary United States, when they …
Brad speaks with Tim Whitaker of the New Evangelicals about what he saw and heard at the TPUSA Pastor's Conference in Nashville - a gathering of 1100 …
Brad and Dan being by discussing Trump's indictment on federal charges. They then break down the life and death of Pat Robertson - an architect of the Religious Right and someone whose influence resounds in American …
With Dan still on vacation, enjoy this episode from the One Nation All Belief series:
Brad speaks with Paul Southwick and Erin Green from the …
Faith deconstruction - the intentional examination of one's religious faith and beliefs, leading to a profound change in, or even loss of, that faith - has received increasing attention in the past few years. But, who …
Brad is joined by guest co-host Annika Brockschmidt. They begin by dissecting the Target boycott staged by the American Right. Brad analyzes it by …
Dan is on vacation this week, so we are happy to present Brad's interview with Rev. Alex McNeill, which is part of the special series ONE NATION ALL BELIEFS.
Rev. McNeill is a white, queer, transgender man, an ordained …
The Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence make up an unlikely order of nuns. Self-described as “twenty-first century queer nuns,” the Sisters began in 1979 …
Brad begins by offering a metaphor for understanding how Christian nationalists and others view the United States: A complementarian marriage. The …
On this episode of ONE NATION, ALL BELIEFS (subscribe links below): Dave Warnock was caught up in the Jesus movement of the 70s and lived the bulk of …
The previous episode explored how Christian churches, as well as other religious, non-profit, and volunteer organizations, exploit the idea of …
What if told you 9% of Americans think only Christians should be eligible for citizenship? Or if 14% thought that their church should have veto power …
Brad and Dan begin by analyzing the surge in vigilantism on the American Right. Brad discusses how vigilantism often rises in times when there is a question of who belongs in the community - and what it means to have a …
On this episode of ONE NATION, ALL BELIEFS (subscribe links below) brad speaks with Dr. Allyson Shortle an associate professor at the University of Oklahoma, where she studies group identity in the context of American …
What do Christians mean when they refer to someone having a “servant’s heart”? How does this language, so foreign to those outside of a particular …
How do we prevent young men from being radicalized into misogynistic, White supremacists, and xenophobic movements? How can this prevent gun …
Brad and Dan begin by discussing the two massacres in one day that happened in Texas last weekend. They borrow from work by Umar Haique who …
On this episode of ONE NATION, ALL BELIEFS (subscribe links below) Brad speaks with Indu Kumar, a student fellow with Americans United who is organizing on the ground in Tennessee. She discusses the ways that students, …
In the previous episode, Dan looked at what’s going on when people tell us we are “right where God wants us to be.” But what does it mean when those same people DON’T tell us that? Why do they seem to say this at some …
Brad interviews writer Scott Okamoto, author of Asian American Apostate, his wry and ironic story of leaving religion while teaching at an evangelical university. Okamoto’s often-chilling accounts reveal that such …
Brad and Dan begin with a thorough breakdown of why the Texas bill to post the Ten Commandments in public school classrooms is unconstitutional and …
Today we are launching a new limited series called One Nation, All Beliefs. produced in partnership with Americans United for the Separation of Church and State. This is the series intro.
You can subscribe by going …
What does it mean when someone assure you that you are “right where God wants you to be”? Is it intended as a word of encouragement? As an …
Brad speaks with Jeff Sharlet about his NYT bestseller The Undertow: Scenes from a Slow Civil War. Jeff talks about everything from his long …
On the day that the Pornography Wars is released, we re-release Brad's interview with the author Dr. Kelsy Burke, a sociologist from the University …
What is “public confession,” and what is its relation to the practice of sharing one’s testimony? When and how does sharing a testimony verge into public confession? Why does public confession have to be “public,” and …
Many are wondering how and why religious minorities in the USA adopt conservative - and even fascist - political identities when it seems that the …
Dan and guest co-host Annika Brockschmidt discuss "Stand Your Ground Laws" in the wake of more shootings in the USA. They outline the catch 22 of perpetual fear that people live in as "wrong place, wrong time" murders …
What do Christians mean when they refer to their “personal testimonies”? What do they mean when they refer to “witnessing” to others? Why do some Christians emphasize “testifying”? This language can be confusing to …
Brad speaks to Dr. Miguel de la Torre about his new book, Resisting American Apartheid. They talk about how "Euro-Christianity" distorts faith. They talk about how becoming "un-American" might be the best way to save …
Brad and Dan begin by discussing the utterly confusing rulings from several judges on legality and availability of mifepristone, commonly known as …
G.R.A.C.E.: “God’s Riches at Christ’s Expense.” B.I.B.L.E.: “Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth.” Acronyms like these are a common feature …
Brad speaks with writer, director, and comedian Holly Laurent, creator of the hit podcast MEGA about a satirical megachurch. They talk about her …
Brad and Dan begin by discussing the explusion of two members of the Tennessee legislature - Reps. Justin Jones and Justin Pearson - after they led …
Almost all of us are likely familiar with calls on the political and religious right to oppose “wokeness” or to be “anti-woke.” We all have a sense …
Brad speaks to Dr. Matthew Boedy, Associate Professor at the University of North Georgia. Dr. Boedy is the go-to source on all things Charlie Kirk and TPUSA. He explains the rhetoric Kirk has used with his various …
Brad and Dan begin with first reactions to the late breaking news that Donald Trump will be indicted next week. They discuss the details of the case, …
What do Christians mean when they refer to “the Word of God,” or even just “the word”? What do they mean when they someone has offered a “good word”? …
On a day when the USA suffers another mass shooting at a school, Brad talks about the symbolism of the AR 15, the sickness of wanting to provide …
On the Weekly Roundup Brad and Dan begin by going through the litany of Trump's attempts to thwart NY DA Alvin Bragg's case against him and his call for supporters to protest if/when he is arrested. This, in their mind, …
“I have a word on my heart for you,” or “the Lord has laid a word on my heart for you,” is a phrase that is common within conservative American Christian circles. Many people who are familiar with this phrase find that …
Brad speaks to Dr. Andrew Whitehead (IUPUI) and Dr. Sam Perry (U. of Oklahoma) who discuss their written testimony to the J6 Select Committee on how Christian nationalism was a motivating force behind the J6 …
Brad and Dan begin by discussing Mike Pence's homophobic joke about Pete Buttigieg and his openly blaming of Donald Trump for the J6 insurrection.
They then break down the GOP's reversal on mail-in voting and debate what …
What does it mean when a Christian warns us against being “unequally yoked” with someone else? Where does this language come from? And how has been used to marginalize and exclude others? What are the dangers of this …
On this re-released episode from 2019 Brad shares his former apocalypse extremism. Dan draws on his expertise in apocalyptic literature to unpack how evangelicals envision the end of the world and what it means for …
Dan and guest co-host Annika Brockschmidt begin by discussing this Tucker Carlson's handling of 40,000 hours of video from the January 6th Capitol …
People in our lives often tell us they are “praying for” us, that they are “keeping us in their prayers,” etc. Sometimes these assurances on the part of others bring us comfort, but other times they stir up complex …
Brad speaks with Dr. Lerone Martin, Associate Professor of Religious Studies at Stanford University and Director of the Martin Luther King Jr. Institute at Stanford. They discuss his new book - The Gospel of J. Edgar …
Brad and Dan begin by discussing an excerpt from Joshua Butler's new book, which appeared at the Gospel Coalition this week. The excerpt lays out a …
Building on the previous episode, Dan dives deeper into the code of not being a “stumbling block” in this episode. How do admonitions not to be a stumbling block depart from the actual context of that phrase in the …
In a joint episode with the New Evangelicals, Brad hosts a roundtable with Tim Whitaker (New Evangelicals), Dr. Leah Payne, and Dr. Matthew Taylor. The four of them discuss what the revival looked like in person when …
Brad and Dan begin by discussing the polar opposite speeches given by Biden and Putin on the eve of the one year anniversary of Russia's invasion of …
One of the most central metaphors for living a life of Christian faith is that of one’s “spiritual walk.” And within this framework, the metaphor of …
Brad speaks with Rebbecca Bratten Weiss, a reporter for US Catholic magazine and a contributor to the National Catholic Reporter. They revisit the …
Brad and Dan begin by talking about Nikki Haley's announcement that she is running for president. While she mentioned being a candidate for a new generation, it seems she is ready to carry on the work of her former boss …
“Interview with Dr. Laura Anderson: Understanding Trauma”
Many of the themes and topics we explore in “It’s In the Code” figure prominently in the experience of those who have been traumatized by participation in …
Brad speaks with the one and only Dr. Matthew Taylor, creator of Charismatic Revival Fury. They begin by discussing where key NAR prophets and apostles are on the 2024 election and how they are navigating Trump's slide …
Brad and Dan begin by discussing the State of the Union address given by Pres. Biden this past week. Brad touches on Biden's main theme: how he is working to provide support, relief, funding for Americans in the form of …
Many of the themes and topics we explore in “It’s In the Code” figure prominently in the experience of those who have been traumatized by …
Brad speaks with author David Clary about his new book, Soul Winners: The Ascent of America's Evangelical Entrepreneurs. They discuss the history of …
Brad and Dan break down three issues:
The language of “purity” looms large within certain Christian discourses in the US. But what is “purity”? What are the religious, cultural, and …
Brad speaks with Zac Dayvis and Ashley McKinless, co-hosts of Jesuitical and editors at America Magazine, about why young Catholics are drawn to the …
Brad and Dan begin by discussing the arrest of the FBI agent who was in charge of the NY bureau in the lead up to the 2016 election. He was arrested for working for Oleg Deripaska, a man who was at the center of the …
Many have had someone tell them, or grew up hearing, that we all have a “God-shaped hole” in our souls or hearts, and that only faith in (or a …
As environmental, political, and public health crises multiply on Earth, we are also at the dawn of a new space race in which governments team up …
Brad and Dan begin by discussing the recent news that Ron DeSantis and his administration rejected the AP course in African American studies course …
Many conservative Christians describe their “faith” as giving “purpose” or “meaning” to their life. What do they mean by this? And why does it does it feel to many that there’s more than a confession or description …
Brad speaks with journalist Anna Beahm from Reckon South. Anna shares her harrowing stories from living through (and surviving) purity culture. Over …
Brad and Dan begin by breaking down how the attempted coup in Brazil is a Christian nationalist copycat of J6, and what this means for how the world …
Christians of all kinds and traditions talk about “grace.” But what is “grace”? And if it’s a message of God’s radical acceptance of human beings, why does it provoke feelings of guilt and condemnation for so many? …
On January 6, 2023 we gathered a group of scholars to discuss what we've witnesses since the Insurrection and what lies ahead for our democracy. The …
Brad and Dan discuss the ongoing GOP debacle in the House, where a Speaker still has not been elected. They then talk hits and misses from the last year - reproductive rights, voting, Biden's agenda, Russia-Ukraine, J6, …
If the notion that “God helps those who help themselves” isn’t in the Bible, why does it still figure so prominently in the experience of American evangelicals? What is the sentiment behind this notion, and where does …
The NAR Apostles were at the heart of the Christian Trumpism of the J6 Insurrection. If you’ve looked at any images of the crowds surrounding the …
Eight days before the Capitol Insurrection, on December 29, 2020, a group of 15 apostles and prophets, including Dutch Sheets and Becca Greenwood, …
Rudyard Kipling is best known for his children's classic The Jungle Book. But the creator of boy-hero Mowgli also created copaganda for his Nineties - the 1890’s.
In his recurring character Adam Strickland, Kipling …
We’ve all heard the rhetoric about the so-called “war on Christmas.” But why, exactly, do some Christians talk this way? Why do they get so angry? What are they so afraid of? And is there more going on with this …
Cindy Jacobs is one of the most influential independent charismatic apostles on the planet. And almost no one outside of charismatic circles has any idea who she is or what she does. It was through Cindy Jacobs that C. …
Michael Flynn was raised Catholic. But in recent years his spiritual identity has shifted - or expanded. He talks often about spiritual warfare and …
Brad and Dan begin by discussing a litany of stories related to the 45th president - the releasing of his tax returns, the criminal referrals to the DOJ by the J6 Select Committee, and the silence from the GOP.
They then …
We’ve likely all heard someone tell us to “remember the reason for the season.” But what exactly does that mean? What are Christians doing when they say that? In this episode, we find that there never has been a single …
There are two phenomena that we hear a lot about these days in connection to the NAR: The Seven Mountains Mandate and Sean Feucht. The former is a …
There are two phenomena that we hear a lot about these days in connection to the NAR: The Seven Mountains Mandate and Sean Feucht. The former is a …
Brad and Dan begin by discussing the Young Republicans gala, where the president said: “We want to cross the Rubicon. We want total war. We must be prepared to do battle in every arena. In the media. In the courtroom. …
Who “owns” Christmas? When Christians tell non-Christians that they need to “remember the reason for the season,” or accuse them of engaging in a “war on Christmas,” do they have a right to do so? Is Christmas “theirs” …
Ché Ahn may be C. Peter Wagner's most dedicated student- and his most successful heir. He leads a network of 25,000 churches and an international …
CORRECTION: We said on this episode that TH Warren is Episcopalian. She is not. She is part of the Anglican Church of North America. The former is a …
Christian nationalism is a kind of con game. And of all the authors examined in this podcast, the one most likely to appreciate that con would be …
This is the first episode in our new series - Charismatic Revival Fury: The New Apostolic Reformation, written and created by Dr. Matthew Taylor.
In …
Brad and Dan begin by discussing the Senate's passage of the Respect for Marriage Act, which provides federal protections for same-sex marriage. Both hosts see the bill as a net win, but are concerned about the …
“Count it all Joy”
Why do Christians sometimes tell people they should feel “joy” when they experience difficult times? What can that possibly mean? …
We are kicking off a new series on the history of the New Apostolic Reformation with Dr. Matthew Taylor. "Charismatic Revival Fury: The New Apostolic …
On a solo Weekly Roundup Brad discusses the significance of anti-Semitic Holocaust denier Nick Fuentes having dinner at Mar A Lago with former …
In the second episode from their 2019 series, Brad and Dan continue their discussion of the history of the Christian Religious Left. They try to …
This is the first episode in a 2019 series on the Religious Left . Brad and Dan begin by giving a brief history of the Christian Left over the last century. They highlight four main differences with evangelicalism: …
Brad and Dan are in Denver for the SWAJ event this evening! Buy a last minute ticket here: bradonshi.com/nationalism. If you can't watch live a recording will be sent to all virtual attendees in a week or so. In place …
We often hear Christians, cultural conservatives, and conservative politicians appeal to the family, and particularly the need for children to have …
Brad is joined by return guest and co-author Annika Brockschmidt to discuss three things:
Brad and Dan breakdown the good, the bad, the ugly, and the hopeful from the 2022 midterms.
Join us at the SWAJ Live Event: …
Is the slogan, “stand for the flag, kneel for the cross” a harmless expression of the conviction that good Christians can also be good citizens? Or if we decode it, do we find that a meaning that’s much more pernicious …
When it was first published in 1897, Bram Stoker's Dracula immediately triggered a spate of strong emotional responses. These responses partly …
Brad and Dan begin by discussing the attack on Paul Pelosi. Brad discusses the conspiracy theories that have taken hold surrounding the attack and …
One of the most central commands given by Jesus of Nazareth in the Bible is to “love your enemies.” But if this is true, why does it seem like we seldom see this in practice among Christians, especially those who …
Monster in the Mirror is a limited audio series produced by Straight White American Jesus, and created and written by Dr. Lucas Kwong.
Monster in the Mirror is a series about monsters. It's about how the fantastical …
Brad and Dan begin by discussing the brand new survey data from Pew Religion and PRRI about faith, politics, and American values. Dan brings up the …
Brad speaks with Dr. Lucas Kwong, creator of the SWAJ spinoff podcast series Monster in the Mirror - first episode drops Halloween 2022.
They discuss how Christian nationalism is a story - a story about empire, fear of …
Brad and Dan discuss three stories from this week that show American conservatism is over - and what is taking its place is a right-wing …
In the previous episode, Dan decoded the affirmation that Christians are called not to “live in a spirit of fear,” showing that this affirmation …
Brad links last's week's episode on Christianity as the original American purity culture to the argument made in a new book by Stephen Wolfe - "The …
Brad and Dan begin by discussing the final J6 hearing. Brad focuses on the new information that the Secret Service had tips about potential violence …
One of the central admonitions within theologically conservative American Christianity is that Christians are not defined by a “spirit of fear.” What …
Brad does a preview from a key chapter in his new book. He argues that we should see purity culture - the movement for sexual purity in every way …
Brad and Dan begin by discussing the revelations about Herschel Walker, GOP candidate for US Senate in Georgia, paying for an abortion for an ex-girlfriend. What interests them is how this event (like others) reveals …
Theologically and culturally conservative American Christians actively mock “liberal” or “progressive” or “secular” appeals to “safety” in society. …
Brad is joined by scholars Jill-Hicks Keeton and Cavan Concannon to talk about their new book: "Does Scripture Speak for Itself: The Museum of the …
Brad and Dan are in the same room! Recording SWAJ in person! It's the first time since 2019 and so they take the opportunity to do a primer on all things SWAJ: the origin story of the show, the rundown of all the series …
Many have heard Christians claim that “God’s ways are not our ways,” or that “God moves in mysterious ways.” While these words might have been offered as comfort in a trying time, they have had a negative impact on …
Brad speaks with constitutional lawyer Andrew Seidel about the crusade to weaponize religious freedom for the minority - and against the majority.
The Bible speaks of people beating swords into plowshares, but some …
ANNOUNCING THE FIRST SWAJ LIVE EVENT! https://www.bradonishi.com/nationalism/
Brad and Dan begin by going through the details of Trump's awful no good …
ANNOUNCING THE FIRST SWAJ LIVE EVENT! https://www.bradonishi.com/nationalism/
You may hear Christians say they are called to be “in the world, but not of the world”? What does that mean? When someone talks in this way, …
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Brad speaks with the Rev. Angela Tyler-Williams a queer pastor in the Presbyterian USA Church and co-director for movement …
ANNOUNCING THE FIRST SWAJ LIVE EVENT! CHECK IT OUT: https://www.bradonishi.com/nationalism/
Brad and Dan begin by discussing the proposed federal …
“Freedom in Christ”
What do Christians mean when they appeal to “freedom in Christ”? Where does this phrase come from? How is it understood differently by different kinds of Christians? And why does it seem confusing or …
American culture focuses on letting go of grudges and redemption narratives instead of the perpetrator’s obligations or recompense for harmed …
Christian musician and political activist Sean Feucht wants people to join him on Sept. 11 for a time of worship at the U.S. Capitol Reflecting Pool. …
Brad and Dan begin by discussing the recent "controversy" over the casting of BIPOC actors in a new Lord of the Rings series. Dan lays out the reactions from American conservatives who claim that casting a diverse cast …
“God’s Will”
What does it mean when religious people appeal to “God’s will”? What kind of work does this do? Does it always provide the guidance and comfort for life it seems to promise? And what are the dangers of …
Brad gives a preview of his new book by discussing how some of Trump's tactics and myths are comparable to what Hitler used to gain power in Germany. …
Brad and Dan begin by discussing the growing case against Trump, whose seems to have clearly obstructed the retrieval of classified documents from his home. This leads to a discussion of how and when GOP elites will …
“Pronouns”
What’s up with Christian nationalists and religious communities that are so angry when people talk about their pronouns? How does pronoun use relate to and express gender identity? Why do cisgender people also …
Brad is joined by the one and only Dr. Jemar Tisby. They discuss a range of issues related to paternalism, prejudice, and power.
One of the first things Dr. Tisby points out is that compromise has often been the site of …
Brad and Dan begin the episode by discussing the student loan forgiveness announcement the Biden administration made this week. They ask whether it went far enough and then track the responses from the GOP, who …
“Spiritual Warfare 2.0”
How do appeals to “spiritual warfare” relate to the social and political struggles of the flesh-and-blood world? How do …
From the archives, an episode from 2019 centered on how fundamentalist religions are prone to violence. This episode has renewed relevance given the …
Brad and. Dan begin by discussing the week's GOP primary results, nothing that the GOP remains the Party of Trump. They juxtapose these results with …
“Spiritual Warfare 1.0”
What is “spiritual warfare”? Why do some Christians understand their faith and practice in terms of spiritual warfare? And what are some of the concrete effects of understanding Christianity in …
Brad speaks with journalist and pastor Angela Denker about the updated version of her book, Red State Christians.
Red State Christians: https://www.broadleafbooks.com/store/product/9781506482507/Red-State-Christians
…
Brad and Dan begin by going through the nuts and bolts related to the FBI's search of Trump's residence--what it requires to get a warrant, who had …
In this episode, Dan revisits the claim or aspiration to be “biblical.” If such claims or aspirations involve efforts to control religious adherents, …
Brad speaks with Dr. Arlene Sanchez-Walsh, author of Latino Pentecostal Identity, about how and why many Latinx Evangelicals have signed on to Trump's brand of Christian nationalism. They discuss the history of Latinx …
Brad and Dan begin by discussing takeaways from Kansas, where voters soundly rejected a state amendment proposal to ban abortion. In one sense, it offers hope that pro-abortion movements and candidates can push back in …
What does it mean when a Christian says something is “biblical?” Why do some Christians talk this way, while others don’t? What do “biblicist” claims tell us about Christians’ understanding of religious authority and …
What is power? How can power be yielded in helpful and harmful ways?
Brad is joined by Dr. Stephen Backhouse, an international scholar, speaker, and …
Dan is joined by guest co-host Dr. Sara Moslener. They begin by the calls by Mike Pence and others for a national abortion ban. Dan puts this in the …
On a special episode, Brad is joined by Dr. Thomas Lecaque to discuss the likelihood that Trump will face criminal charges for his role in the …
In this episode, Dan takes his lead from listeners who’ve written in about hearing that “God hates divorce,” that “the family that prays together, stays together,” and so forth. What does this language mean? How have …
Brad is joined by Dr. Charlie McCrary, postdoctoral researcher at Arizona State University and author of the new book, Sincerely Held: American …
Brad and Dan begin by discussing last night's J6 hearing, focusing on the 187 minutes between when violence erupted at the Capitol and when Trump …
“Church Family”
What does it mean when a church or spiritual community refers to itself as a “family”? If this is intended as a statement of support and affirmation, why does it make some people feel uncomfortable? And …
Brad and Dan discuss immigration, refugees, and White evangelicals with Dr. Janelle Wong, Core Faculty in Asian American Studies and Professor of …
This week’s episode focuses on the intersections of cultural and political debates about race, history, sexual violence, and abortion. Dan and guest …
What does it mean when cultural and religious conservatives proclaim that they affirm a “culture of life?” We know it means that they oppose abortion …
Brad speaks with Stanford scholar of religion Dr. Kathryn Gin Lum about her new book Heathen. They discuss how White American Christians have used …
Brad is joined by guest co-host Dr. Leah Payne. They begin by discussing how many White Americans - especially White Christian nationalists - view the national body as straight, White, patriarchal, and American-born. …
What does it mean when Christians say that we “live in a fallen world”? Where does that language come from? Most importantly, what to different kinds of Christians do with that language? Dan tackles these topics in this …
Brad speaks with Dr. Kelsy Burke, a sociologist from the University of Nebraska, who discusses her new book The Pornography Wars: The Past, Present, …
Brad and Dan are back together. They begin by discussing the validity and significance of Cassidy Hutchinson's testimony at the J6 hearing this week. Brad implores us not to get distracted by claims that her account of …
In this episode, Dan decodes a phrase that A LOT of listeners have contacted him about: the claim that Christians are called to “love the sinner, but hate the sin.” What does this mean? What kind of Christian claim is …
Brad is joined by writer R.L. Stollar who discusses his recent article on Voddie Baucham and the Stay at Home Daughter Movement. Baucham may not be a …
Brad is joined by guest co-host Annika Brockschmidt, a historian and journalist who has written a wonderful new book about Christian nationalism in …
In this episode, Dan decodes the admonition to “remember who you are,” as well as the related admonition to “remember whose you are” and the question …
Brad is joined by Dr. Joe Blankholm, Associate Professor of Religious Studies at the University of California Santa Barbara. They discuss his new …
Brad and Dan begin this weekly roundup with takeaways from the J6 hearings. They focus on the ways the committee demonstrated how Trump and Eastman both knew the theory was illegal, but pushed it anyway. The question: …
On June 11, 2022 31 alleged members of Patriot Front were arrested near the Pride celebration in Coeur d'Alene Idaho. Brad speaks with two people who were at the event--Alicia Abbott of The Idaho 97 and Chad Schobert, …
Building from the previous episode, Dan explores what’s going on when people say that Christianity is “a religion, not a relationship,” when salvation is understood as requiring a “personal relationship” with Jesus, and …
In his recent article at Religion Dispatches, historian Thomas Lecaque writes: In the wake of every mass shooting in this country, we have a brief …
Brad is joined by guest co-host Dr. Leah Payne. They begin by discussing the first primetime hearing of the J6 Select Committee. Brad observes that they seemed to have two goals - first to show that Trump and Trump's …
What does it mean when someone asks you if you’re “saved”? If you’re active in the life of a Christian church or tradition (of whatever kind), and someone says, “that’s fine, but are you saved,” what’s going on? In this …
Brad speaks with journalist Elle Hardy about her new book, Beyond Belief: How Pentecostal Christianity is Taking Over the World. How has a Christian movement, founded at the turn of the twentieth century by the son of …
Brad and Dan begin by discussing the mass shootings that took place this week at a funeral, a hospital, and more. They ask what can be done about gun …
What does it mean when a church declares itself to be “open and affirming?” How does this relate to churches that claim that “no matter where you are on your spiritual journey, you’re welcome here”? In this episode, Dan …
Brad speaks with Dr. Khyati Joshi, author of White Christian Privilege: The Illusion of Religious Equality in America (NYU 2020).
https://nyupress.org/9781479840236/white-christian-privilege/
The United States is …
On an emotional weekly roundup, Brad and Dan discuss the timeline, law enforcement failures, and nihilism of the Uvalde Massacre. From the handcuffing of parents trying to rescue their kids, to the myth of the good guy …
This past week a 400-page report outlining the culture of coverup and the widespread abuse in the Southern Baptist Convention was released. The SBC …
“No matter where you are on your spiritual journey, you’re welcome here.” This is a slogan we might read on church flyers, websites, or signs. We might here it in the welcome given by the pastor of a church. But what …
Brad speaks with sex educator Erica Smith about her experiences working in abortion care and what the overturning of Roe looks like on the ground for ordinary Americans. They discuss how and why abortion is healthcare …
Brad and Dan begin by discussing the various dimensions of the Buffalo massacre and the shooter's understanding of Caucasian Replacement Theory …
What is “cool kid church?” It’s the gleaming church-that-doesn’t-look-like-a-church in suburbia. It’s the church with the pastor who’s just a “cool …
Brad speaks with Teddy Wilson of Radical Reports about the trickle down effect of overturning Roe. They discuss how this will lead to an expanded …
Brad and Dan continue to discuss what the post-Roe landscape looks like. They begin by going through a new article by Katherine Stewart and the New Republic. Stewart shows how Alito uses the argument from history to …
“It’s Part of God’s Plan”
“God has a plan for your life.” “It’s all part of God’s plan.” How do we decode common religious sentiments like these? Are they sources of hope? Affirmations of a loving and caring God? Sources …
Since the mid-twentieth century, evangelicals and others on the Religious Right have looked to Hollywood, rather than the Bible, to construct their …
In the wake of the 1964 Goldwater campaign, three young men decided to start the Council for National Policy in order to take back the country for …
On this installment of the Orange Wave: A History of the Religious Right Since 1960, Brad traces two intertwined histories. First, the Sun Belt …
The Religious Right has not always existed. White evangelicals have not always been the guardians of far-right immigration policies and patriarchal …
Some just want to watch the world burn. But for others, the end of the world is an opportunity to rebuild it in their image. On this penultimate …
In the early 1960s, Orange County became the hub for both white evangelical Christianity and libertarian politics. It was the epicenter of the John …
You might be surprised to learn that the history of sex ed in the USA is a religious history. Christians were not always the enemies of science-based sex education programs. But during the 1960s, the Religious Right …
If you want to take the country back for God, if you want to have dominion over every level of society, if you want to ensure a white Christian …
Brad explores the alliance between the alt-right and the Religious Right in and through Trump's presidency. In tracing this story, he uncovers how and why the Religious Right now looks to Putin's Russia, Orban's …
On the series finale, Brad reflects on his departure from Orange County and evangelicalism. This provides a jumping off point for reflecting on what we've learned through the series, and, perhaps most importantly, how …
Many evangelicals are single-issue voters when it comes to abortion. Brad and Dan discuss the historical development of this trend, and why it represents more than just a concern for the unborn. Dan goes through the …
In the wake of news that Roe v. Wade will likely be overturned, Brad and Dan begin this episode with a history of how evangelicals have transformed on the issue of abortion. In the 1960s and 1970s many evangelical …
The American Christian landscape is littered with “Bible churches.” It is full of churches that use the word “Bible” in their name, or that claim to …
Why are white evangelicals the most skeptical major religious group in America regarding climate change? Previous scholarship has pointed to …
Brad and Dan begin this episode with a prolonged discussion of the newly released audio of Kevin McCarthy calling for Trump's resignation and the …
New Series: It’s in the Code
American Christians speak in a bewildering array of different “codes” that mark their identities, signaling to others who is welcome among them and who isn’t. This series explores how to …
What are the psychological stages of leaving religion? How can mourning religion lead to new forms of faith, meaning, and community?
David Morris, …
Brad is joined by special guest co-host Dr. Sara Moslener. They begin by discussing the hilarious trailer for Tucker Carlson's new original show, "The End of Men," which among other things touts the practice of tanning …
Return episode following a great thread by @CaitlinJStout, Brad discusses why the people who leave evangelicalism are often the ones who devoted …
Back in the early 1990s, the Unification Church demanded an apology from a brash real-estate mogul they accused of using the church as “a scare …
Brad and Dan begin by discussing the new Hillsong documentary, "Hillsong: A Megachurch Exposed," and the various sexual abuse and infidelity scandals that have rocked the church of the stars. They draw on work by Dr. …
In this final series episode, Dan tries to understand why well-meaning liberals and progressives so often experience identity politics as a threat, …
When the rallying cry “Black Lives Matter” was heard across the world in 2013, Andre Henry was one of the millions for whom the movement caused a …
It's a small world after all. So small we can go from Florida to Alaska to Arizona to California in one episode. A magically tragic journey through …
One of the fallacies that often arises when we think about diverse identities, marginalization, and exclusion, is that all those groups who have experience marginalization or exclusion will naturally or organically come …
"Christian nationalism seeks to merge Christian and American identities, distorting both the Christian faith and America’s constitutional democracy. Christian nationalism demands Christianity be privileged by the State …
Brad and Dan begin by discussing how Madison Cawthorn's claims about cocaine and orgies sounded like youth group scare tactics.
They then dig into the significance of the texts between Ginni Thomas and Mark Meadows, …
How do we understand a complex social and political phenomenon like Christian nationalism? Does it represent a strategic coalition of different …
Dr. Carolyn Chen is Associate Professor of Ethnic Studies and Co-Director of the Program for the Study of Religion at Berkeley. Her new book, Work, …
Brad and Dan are joined by special guest host Dr. Sara Moslener, the professor for our May 2022 seminar: Purity Culture, Race, and Embodiment. The …
If individual identity and group identity are deeply intertwined, why does it seem that group identity shapes individual identity, but not the other way around? Why are group identities so hard to change, even when …
In Part 2 of a two-part interview, Brad speaks with Philip Gorski (Yale) and Sam Perry (Oklahoma University) about their new book, the Flag and the Cross: White Christian Nationalism and the Threat to American …
In Part 1 of a two-part interview, Brad speaks with Philip Gorski (Yale) and Sam Perry (Oklahoma University) about their new book, the Flag and the Cross: White Christian Nationalism and the Threat to American …
We often think of individual and groups identities as separate, or as incompatible in some way. But in this episode, we consider the ways in which our group identities determine and shape our individual identities, and …
While the bill in Florida has received more attention, South Carolina has its own Don't Say Gay bill on the docket. The bill would prevent …
Brad and Dan discuss a wide range of topics— from GOP voter fraud to Madison Cawthorn calling Zelenskyy a thug, to Don’t Say Gay Bills—through the …
Why can it be so apparent to us that people’s political behavior or social views are a reflection of their group identity, but they will insist that …
Why are American Christians rooting for Putin? How did the Russian autocrat become the ideal leader in their eyes? Brad speaks to Dr. Sara Riccard Swartz, an expert on Russian Orthodoxy and American religions, about her …
Brad and Dan begin by discussing the recent AFPAC conference, where the far-right figure Nick Fuentes compared Putin to Hitler in a positive way, …
What do we mean when we talk about “recognition”? What is it to recognize someone in their identity? What is it to recognize ourselves in a …
Brad speaks with the Danté Stewart about his journey into, and then out of, the White Church. Stewart grew up a Black Pentecostal until he reached university. There he began attending a White megachurch. He spent years …
Brad and Dan discuss Putin's war on Ukraine and the Christian nationalist/GOP responses at home. They focus the first segment on how the only people on the global stage defending Putin openly are Donald Trump and select …
This episode explores the concern that people act against their own social or political interests because of their identity. Because they privilege …
*Correction*: "Jeff" says that Locke's church is in McMinnville, TN. It is in fact in Mt. Juliet TN. Brad didn't catch it in the conversation. Both …
Steve Bannon is a familiar figure by now. One of the super villains from the Trump administration, he is still a force in right-wing politics in the …
Brad and Dan begin by discussing the Jericho Marches connected to the "Freedom Convoy" protests in Ottawa. Drawing on work by the writer Chrissy …
What is the relation to class and identity? Does a focus on identity and identity politics overlook, trivialize, or eliminate the significance of …
Brad speaks to filmmaker Kat Gellein Viken who is the co-creator of two recent documentaries on churches, conspiracy, and the war on democracy. In 2020's People You May Know, Gellein and her co-creator Charles Kriel …
Brad and Dan begin by discussing the RNC calling J6 "legitimate political discourse." While it may seem like a blip in a busy news cycle, Dan relates …
This episode revisits the idea that identity is about recognition and explores the significance of this. Because identity is not only about how I recognize myself, but also about how others recognize me, identity is …
What if J6 and the Anti-CRT movements trace back to the same secretive organization? What if J6 was the result of years of planning and organizing? …
Brad and Dan begin with a discussion about the new bill in Florida that would outlaw referencing gender and sexual identity. This new "Don't Say Gay …
Contemporary critics on both the right and the left essentially accuse those who politically mobilize around social identities of being fundamentally …
Dr. Dana Lloyd is an expert on Native American religious traditions and faculty at Villanova University. She speaks to Brad about how the QAnon …
Brad and Dan begin this episode with a discussion of the new profile of Jerry Falwell Jr. at Vanity Fair. In their view, Falwell is a type for …
If all of politics involves “identity,” and if we all possess identities, why do so many feel like contemporary “identity politics” is something new …
Dr. Leah Payne is a historian of Pentecostalism and other Christian traditions in the United States. She speaks with Brad about the overwhelming presence of charismatic Christians at the Insurrection. Drawing on her …
Brad and Dan lay out the timeline and details of the fake electors the Trump campaign organized in order to overthrow the election. If you thought …
What is identity? It isn’t something limited to particular social groups claiming equal rights or something that only applies to minority groups of …
Brad interviews Phil Gorski, Professor of Sociology at Yale, and the author of the new co-authored book with Sam Perry, The Flag and the Cross: White …
Brad and Dan begin this MLK weekend show by going over the outlines of the 1965 Voting Rights Act, the Selma marches, and King’s missives to White moderates. They link this to the current fight for voting rights and the …
What do politicians like Donald Trump, Hillary Clinton, and Bernie Sanders have in common? They’re critical of “identity politics.” In this episode, …
Brad speaks with journalist and researcher Teddy Wilson, who has spent a decade covering the Radical Right in the United States. Teddy describes the J6 rioter network map he has built, showing the connections among the …
Brad and Dan begin this J6 anniversary episode by zooming in on certain religious elements manifest at the Insurrection. Dan decodes the various Braveheart references and signs on display, connecting them to a form of …
On the first episode in this series, Dan Miller explains why identity politics gets a bad rap and why that's a mistake. He introduces basic concepts …
In the first installment of J6 One Year Later, Brad speaks with the journalist Sarah Posner. Sarah discusses the various aspects of Christian supremacy and myth that provided a basis for the religious dimensions of the …
Brad and Dan kickoff this New Year's Day roundup with a look at the false binary anti-vaxxers use to criticize the COVID vaccine and put forth a bad …
In an interview from early 2020, Brad talks with Dr. Samuel Perry, co-author of Taking America Back for God and a leading scholar on the phenomenon …
Brad speaks with scholar Mark Fugitt whose recent work explores the various sources and factors in evangelical opposition to the COVID vaccine. He …
Brad and Dan begin by discussing how Joe Manchin is giving everyone coal for Christmas, even though coal workers want him to vote for the Build Back Better Act. It shows that his actions are based on corporate lobbying, …
In an interview recorded in 2019, Brad talks with Dr. Kelly J. Baker, author of the award-winning book "Gospel According to the Klan." They talk about how and why the Klan's story is THE story of white Protestant …
Brad speaks with Aaron Griffith, Assistant Professor of History at Whitworth University. They discuss his book, God's Law and Order: The Politics of …
Brad and Dan begin by discussing the text messages to Mark Meadows revealed by the J6 Select Committee. They dig into why this confirms all the worries we had about the plot to overthrow the election. They also …
Brad responds to pastor Matt Chandler's claim that deconstruction is only for those who were never real Christians in the first place. Brad dissects Chandler's blithe reference to Derrida (and moral relativism), …
Robert Mason is a biblical scholar whose recent work focuses on Romans 13. This passage of the New Testament has been frequently used (and abused) by …
Brad begins by reviewing the bombshell document on Trump's plan to commandeer a recount of the 2020 election by using the military and other government agencies. He links this to comments this week by Matt Gaetz about …
On the final installment of Mild at Heart Brad discusses how purity culture taught him to treat his body as an enemy that his mind was in charge of …
Amanda Moore spent a year undercover attending rallies, events, and conferences in the trenches of MAGA Nation. She hung out with Proud Boys, got up close and personal with QAnon grifters, and got invited to join a …
Brad and Dan are back after a week off. They begin by discussing SCOTUS and the very real possibility of Roe v. Wade being overturned. Dan distills the arguments of the Trump appointed judges. Brad points to the …
Brad and Dan are joined by Professor Kristin Kobes du Mez, author of Jesus and John Wayne, and an expert on evangelical masculinity and culture. They …
Brad speaks with Dennison University political scientist Paul Djupe. They discuss Djupe's findings that those Christians who live in homogenous …
Dan speaks with author and constitutional lawyer Andrew Seidel. They discuss his new book, "The Founding Myth," and dissect the idea that the USA is a Christian nation.
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In his new book, Profaning Paul, USC Professor Cavan Concannon takes an unflinching look at the letters of Paul through the metaphor of excrement--or …
Brad and Dan discuss the censuring of Rep. Paul Gosar for his tweet depicting him as an anime character killing Rep AOC. This leads to a bold, but …
On Mourning the One and the lessons about love you never learn in church.
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A life long social activist, Obery Hendricks is one of the foremost commentators on the intersection of religion and political economy in America. He …
Brad and Dan begin by discussing the case of Aaron Rodgers, who was recently found out not to have been vaccinated. They discuss the various components at play in the case--from becoming an anti-vaxxer wiithout …
Brad uses recent comments by Josh Hawley to talk about what people mean when they say that the country (and the church) needs to return to …
Brad's spirited and at times contentious interview with Daniel Silliman, the news editor for Christianity Today and the author of Reading …
Brad and Dan begin by debating the fallout of the gubernatorial election in Virginia. Dan points out that historically the party in power doesn't perform well in midterm and off-year elections. This is especially true …
Brad takes a break from Mild at Heart to talk to writer, podcaster, and organizer Cindy Wang Brandt, the person behind Parenting Forward. Cindy discusses her journey from Evangelical convert to the go-to person helping …
Dr. Brett Krutsch is the editor of the Revealer and the Director of the Center for Religion and Media at NYU, He speaks to Brad about his book, "Dying to Be Normal: Gay Martyrs and the Transformation of American Sexual …
Brad and Dan begin by discussing three trials happening right now: the Charlottesville Unite the Right Trial, the Kenosha Shooter Trial, and the Murder of Amaud Arbery. They analyze the racial, legal, and historical …
Why does love feel like death? Brad continues to reflect on the soulmate myth and purity culture's vision of love. He analyzes how the model of love …
Calvary Chapel started in Southern California in the 1960s. From the beginning, the aesthetic was laid-back, casual, and welcoming--the type of place …
Brad and Dan begin discussing the MAGA freakout over Mayor Pete's paternity leave. They use this to ask what kind of families and what kind of fathers conservatives envision when they talk endlessly about family values. …
Brad shifts to the theme of love and explains the toxicity of the soulmate myth in purity culture.
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Alex DiBranco is Executive Director and Founder at Institute for Research on Male Supremacism. Alex stops by to discuss "Male Supremacist Terrorism as a Rising Threat". According to Dibranco, male supremacism is a …
Brad and Dan begin by discussing a rally for VA gubernatorial candidate Glenn Youngkin where supporters pledged allegiance to a flag carried at the January 6th Insurrection. To top it off, Steve Bannon--who is ignoring …
Brad discusses the fact that masculinity is often a performance for other men. Men fear what other men think of them, creating the need to constantly …
Brad speaks with Dr. Jessica Johnson, research fellow at the College of William and Mary and author of Biblical Porn: Affect, Labor, and Pastor Mark …
Brad and Dan begin by discussing the Senate Judiciary Committee's findings on how Trump sought to overturn the election by pressuring the DOJ. Dan …
Brad shares an episode from his deconstruction when he began to date again. It was the first time he was out of church and single since he converted. …
Blake Chastain, host of #Exvangelical and Powers and Principalities, and the author of a recent piece on the recent Christianity Today podcast on the downfall of Mars Hill, stops by to talk about why religious leaders …
Brad and Dan discuss American values in relation to the ongoing debates among Democrats about the Biden administration's infrastructure bill. They discuss why Joe Manchin has been willing to vote for 9 trillion in …
Brad continues his analysis of sex and masculinity in purity culture. He focuses on how it teaches men to hate themselves twice.
First, they hate …
Constitutional Originalism is the idea that one should read the Constitution, not interpret it. It endeavors to implement the "original" intent of …
Brad and Dan begin by discussing Trump and why exploring the ongoing revelations of the January 6th is more than just archival mining.
The second major topic is the reclaiming of abortion as a religious right. Brad draws …
Brad discusses the strange contradiction at the heart of purity culture's vision of masculinity: You are a sexual savage that has a near …
Brad speaks to his co-host Dan Miller about Miller's new book, Queer Democracy: Desire, Dysphoria, and the Body Politic. Dan explains why the …
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Brad speak with Ryan Stollar, expert on child protection and a Christian homeschooling survivor. Ryan shares his research on the evangelical and …
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A re-release of Dan’s interview with Professor R. Marie Griffith, author of Moral Combat: How Sex Divided American Christians and Fractured American …
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Dr. Liliana …
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Brad and Dan discuss the dangerous rhetoric coming from the right that frames the …
Brad discusses the idea that capitalism and Christianity go together from two angles. First, he outlines how in the mid-twentieth century big business actors infiltrated church spaces with the ideas that free market …
Dartmouth professor and pre-eminent scholar of Evangelicalism Dr. Randall Balmer returns to talk about his new book, Bad Faith: Race and the Rise of …
Brad and Dan discuss the vehement support for the Iraq War and the invasion of Afghanistan during the Bush years and comment briefly on the ills of American Empire.
They then discuss the dangers and implications of the …
Brad continues the Exvie Apologetics series with a retort to those who would say that there are only two genders and that the idea of pronouns is a …
Luke Wilson is a survivor of "conversion therapy." He has written about his experiences at Liberty University for Religion Dispatches, Queerty, and other outlets. In this conversation, Luke provides his response to the …
Brad begins this solo roundup by discussing how provocateur worship leader Sean Feucht provoked conflict in Portland Sunday. His security team was …
Brad speaks with Emily Torres, who is behind the Life She Wrote blog and podcast. Emily tells her story of growing up--and eventually leaving--Evangelicalism and describes the religious trauma that ensued from her …
Brad speaks with Dr. Laura Anderson, founder of the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery and co-founder of the Religious Trauma Institute. They …
Brad and Dan discuss Tucker Carlson's trip to Hungary and interview with Orban as part of a decades-long pattern of White nationalists and White Christian nationalists looking to autocratic strongmen as the models of …
Brad addresses two common refrains about racism and social issues--the "racism is a heart issue" response and the "not of this world" response. He …
Brad speaks with Matthew Sheffield, the editor and publisher of the new media outlet Flux. They discuss his article, "Republicans are banking on a …
Brad and Dan begin with extended analysis of the testimony of the Capitol Police officers before the 1/6 committee. Their words are shocking and …
Brad revisits the idea that exvangelicals are just broke and giving up on faith. He responds to an interview at the Remnant Radio with Skillet's John …
Brad speaks once again with Dr. Susannah Crockford. They discuss her new book, Ripples of the Universe, which provides an ethnographic account of New Age spiritual practitioners in Sedona, Arizona. Dr. Crockford …
Brad and Dan begin by discussing what's behind the anti-vax attitudes of many Americans, especially White Christians. After reviewing the staggering …
Last weekend theologian and former head of the Council for Biblical Manhood and Womanhood Owen Strachan tweeted that taking away even one comma from …
Dr. Megan Goodwin is the author of Abusing Religion, which explores how White Christians and their influence in our "secular" institutions have …
Brad and Dan begin with a discussion of the revelations from the new book, "I Alone Can Fix It," including General Mark Milley's preparing for Trump's Reichstag Moment, Pence's belief that his Secret Service detail was …
Brad discusses a new article at WaPo on the Trumpism and Christian nationalism of non-denominational churches.
Brad speaks with Dr. Lucas Kwong of CUNY about the far-reaching implications of Christian xenophobia. They discuss the explicit White nationalism of …
"Whatever natural good was present in the piety and community of the pagan past is an infinitesimal fraction of the grace rendered unto those pagans’ descendants who have been received into the Church of Christ. …
Brad begins by responding to Pennsylvania Senate candidate Josh Mandel who claimed last week that the Bible and the Constitution were "not supposed …
Dr. Benjamin E. Park is a historian who has become a national voice on issues related to religion and politics, particularly as they relate to the …
Brad and Dan begin this 4th of July weekend episode with thoughts from James Baldwin, who discussed his love for America as a "lover's quarrel."
They …
Brad speaks with author and pastor Ruth Everhart about her new book, "The #MeToo Reckoning: Facing the Church's Complicity in Sexual Abuse and …
The Catholic Church is officially against abortion. But there are millions of Catholics around the world--including President Joe Biden--who are …
Brad and Dan do close readings of statements made by Insurrectionist Senator Josh Hawley and Representative Matt Gaetz in order to deconstruct the logic of their attacks on CRT, their resistance to facing the …
We are thrilled to announce Straight White American Jesus's first affiliate podcast: Out of the Closet and Into the Pews, a show by Rachael Borthwick that asks what it means for religion to be a vehicle for liberation …
Brad speaks with Kyle J. Howard, a theologian and counselor trained at a Southern Baptist Seminary. He discusses his conversion at 18 at a Black …
Brad asks Dan to explain how the Southern Baptist Convention is a barometer for White American Christianity and what it means moving forward. They then discuss how the White panic over CRT has led to dangerous …
Brad speaks again with journalist Jonathan Krohn who is covering the Southern Baptist Convention for the New Republic. Krohn takes Brad through all the major events at the convention:
From an SBC presidential candidate …
Brad talks with Dr. Matthew Boedy, Associate Professor of English at the University of North Georgia, about the rising young star of Christian nationalist circles and the GOP writ large--Charlie Kirk. Dr. Boedy traces …
Brad and Dan begin with insight from Prof. Jason Stanley: “History shows that propaganda can make a dominant group mad with panic and fear about the threat of a small minority subjugating them, supposedly by seizing the …
Brad speaks with Jonathan Krohn ahead of the Southern Baptist Convention's annual meeting. Jonathan is an investigative journalist and essayist whose work has appeared at Mother Jones, the Washington Post, and many …
Brad speak with R.L. Stollar, a writer and advocate for homeschooled children. As someone homescholed from Kindergarten to high school graduation, …
Brad makes a big announcement regarding the show and a new direction in his professional life . . . with Dan on vacation he then discusses the long list of cases wherein Trump and Trump allies signal their desire to …
Brad is joined on a special Wednesday episode by co-host Dan Miller to discuss a question that many will be hearing at BBQs and on social media:
Why is the 1/6 insurrection bad but you have nothing to say about the BLM …
Brad speaks with Dr. Jill Hicks Keeton about her critical review of Beth Allison Barr's popular new book "The Making of Biblical Womanhood."
Here is …
Brad and Dan begin this Memorial Day episode by discussing the theme of memory and erasure. They point out that there are some things we can't stop remembering--that's how trauma works. The replay of certain events …
In a re-release from 2019, Dan and Brad discuss how evangelicalism is a fundamentalist worldview. They draw on scholarship on global fundamentalisms …
Brad speaks with Dr. Charles McKinney, a historian of the Civil Rights Movement and the Black Church in the South. Dr. McKinney puts the conservative war on Critical Race Theory in historical perspective, explaining how …
Brad and Dan discuss the GOP's opposition to 1/6 commission and how the GOP is doing myth making in real time to change the perception and memory of the Insurrection. They then discuss SCOTUS' decision to hear a case …
In light of the Supreme Court agreeing to hear a case that could lead to the overturning of Roe v. Wade, we are re-releasing Dan's interview with …
Dr. Audrey Clare Farley stops by to discuss her article, "The Eugenics Roots of Evangelical Family Values," which outlines how the family values …
Brad and Dan demonstrate how the only standard of Republican orthodoxy left is whether or not one supports Trump's Big Lie. Through examples from Liz …
Brad discusses something that has been bothering him since his Twitter spat with Timothy Keller: Why are all the Reformed Theo-Bros always talking about worldviews. Brad unpacks the buzz words they use to uncover the …
Brad speaks with Dr. Philip Gorski, Professor of Sociology and Religious Studies at Yale University. They preview his new co-authored book (with Sam …
Brad and Dan examine the competing ideals often put forth by the GOP: 1) Be an individualist who thinks for herself vs. 2) work to unite the country behind a common cause.
They discuss how these ideals are often …
Where is the GOP headed four months after an attempted coup? Even further down the rabbit hole of authoritarianism. In the wake of his jarring …
Brad speaks with Dr. Sarah Riccardi-Swartz, Postdoctoral Fellow at the Recovering Truth Project (Arizona State University) about her recent article, …
Brad and Dan discuss how racism and patriarchy stem from a desire for power and control. They relate this to comments by Rick Santorum on Native …
Brad speaks with Dr. Jill Hicks-Keeton, Associate Professor of Religion at Oklahoma University and co-editor of The Museum of the Bible: A Critical Introduction, about the Museum of the Bible in Washington DC. Started …
Brad and Dan connect the threads of the Chauvin murder conviction, the proposed America First caucus, and racialized violence across the country. …
In the wake of the conviction of former police officer Derek Chauvin for the murder of George Floyd, Brad argues that family values have been used …
Brad speaks with Andrew Seidel, constitutional lawyer at the Freedom From Religion Foundation and author of The Founding Myth: Why Christian Nationalism is Un-American. He explains how the Arkansas state legislature's …
Brad and Dan discuss how returning to normal after the pandemic is tragic in contemporary America: from the murder of Daunte Wright during the Derek Chauvin murder trial to the propagation of White replacement theory by …
Brad's second (and hopefully final) response to Timothy Keller. Brad discusses Keller's reductionist view of modern conceptions of selfhood; the …
Brad and Dan draw on Sophie Bjork-James' new book, the Divine Institution, to demonstrate how Evangelicals use the nuclear family in order to both attack members of the LGBTQ+ community and draw attention away from …
Brad is joined by Dr. Susannah Crockford, author of "Thank God for the greatest country on earth: white supremacy, vigilantes, and survivalists in the struggle to define the American nation," an article in which she …
Brad responds to a Twitter thread by Timothy Keller, pastor at Redeemer Presbyterian Church. Keller argues for sex in a lifelong covenant marked by deep permanent union. He calls this biblical. Brad points out that the …
Brad and Dan are happy to announce that SWAJ is joining the Irreverent Media Group--a collective of podcasts that offers content on deconstruction, …
TEDx speaker and author Asha Dahya is the Creator and Editor in Chief of GIRLTALKHQ. She was born in the UK, raised in Australia, and now lives in the USA. Of Indian descent, Asha grew up in Evangelical churches and was …
Brad’s response to Focus on the Family head Jim Daly, who mentioned him in a recent article. In the article Daly tried to deflect the analyses that …
Dan provides a detailed rebuttal to a piece claiming that there the concern about Christian nationalism is an overblown conspiracy by liberals and celebrities. Brad links this to the draconian voter-suppression law …
Brad talks with Adrian Gibbs, co-host of the Dirty Rotten Church Kids and an ex-evangelical of Filipino descent, about the connections between Ravi Zacharias' abuse of spa workers of Asian descent and the killing of six …
Brad was featured in a NYT article about purity culture and its affect on the Atlanta shooter along with other academics and advocates including Sam …
Brad and Dan discuss the various threads connecting the massacre in Atlanta: from the history of anti-Asian racism, to the various dimensions of …
In the wake of the mass shooting of 8 people, 6 of whom were Asian women, Brad ties together the threads of anti-Asian hate, purity culture, and …
Brad explains how evangelicalism destroys faith, because it destroys any sense of uncertainty and unpredictability. By working in a register of …
Voter suppression laws are Christian nationalist policy. They are part of a long lineage of movements that see White Protestants as the only …
This is a re-release of an episode from last year. Brad talks to journalist Katherine Stewart, author of the Power Worshipers: Inside the Dangerous Rise of Religious Nationalism. Her reporting takes us inside the world …
Sam Kestenbaum is an award-winning freelance journalist who regularly contributes to the New York Times. He recently wrote a feature on Godspeak, a …
Brad compares the current moment to other times in American history when crisis and conflict led to a new normal. What will be our new normal after …
"Conversion therapy" is a discredited practice of trying to change an individual's sexual orientation and/or gender identity. Lucas Wilson is a Liberty University grad who took part in the university's ongoing …
At CPAC this week, there is a golden calf, um, statue of Trump making the rounds. Brad and Dan explore how this emblematizes Trump's continuing reign …
Brad lays out the case as to why the REvangelical movement coming from The Gospel Coalition and other voices in the Evangelical universe should not …
Brad talk to Dr. Ruth Braunstein, Professor of Sociology at the University of Connecticut, about the nostalgic myths that drive MAGA Nation. Their …
What is the point of government? Is is capitalist profit or the common good? Brad and Dan explain how these questions connect notable events from this week--from Rush Limbaugh's death, to the energy disaster in Texas, …
Brad and Dan's interview with Reilly, Associate Pastor at Presbyterian New England Church in Saratoga Springs NY. Reilly shares how she grew up evangelical, realized she was gay right about the time she received the …
Brad discusses the Ravi Zacharias scandal and why sexual abuse is so rampant in Evangelical spaces: authoritarian leadership structures, patriarchal …
Is talking about Christian nationalism akin to demonizing White Christians? Some right-wing theologians and leaders would like you to think it is. …
Dan's 2018 interview with ethicist and former AAR president David Gushee, who left evangelicalism after changing his views of LGBTQ relationships.
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Brad and Dan talk about the false equivalence the GOP tried to draw this week between Marjorie Taylor Greene and Ilhan Omar. This takes place in the …
Monica Rodden is a novelist and ex-evangelical. She wrote this recent piece in the Boston Globe about how she would have been the type of Christian …
Brad and Dan unpack how religions are what people do. The same goes for political parties. This means that White Supremacist Christians and QAnon …
In an episode from fall of 2018, Brad and Dan discuss the issue of abortion in Evangelical culture and how it became a litmus test for who is a "real …
Dr. Peter Manseau is a curator of American religious history at the Smithsonian and the author of ten books. He started #capitolsiegereligion soon …
Brad and Dan discuss the inauguration, including the theological aspects of Biden's speech and the civil religiosity of Biden's approach.
They then …
An episode from Season 1 where Brad and Dan discuss nationalism and populism in the White Evangelical subculture. This is a nice primer for …
Brad is joined by Dr. Richard Steigmann-Gall, a historian and expert in Nazi Germany. They compare Hitler's failed coup of 1923 and the Jan. 6 …
Brad and Dan begin by recalling their episode from the eve of Trump's first impeachment, when the quoted a number of Evangelical leaders threatening/predicting civil war if Trump was impeached. Then, it seemed …
In an interview from 2018, Brad and Dan talk to Dr. Glenn Bracey of Villanova University about his experiences in White churches as a Black man. Dr. …
Dr. Kelly J. Baker, author of Gospel According to the Klan: The KKK’s Appeal to Protestant America, 1915-1930, stops by to discuss how the January 6 insurrection was long in the making. Using the 1920s Klan as a …
Brad and Dan analyze the January 6 Insurrection at the United States Capitol.
They begin by discussing the unprecedented aspects of the events.
Then, …
What if I told you the Religious Right formed on the basis of racism and not abortion? What if segregation was the real issue and the unborn were …
Think of this as a SWAJ primer. We cover many of the major themes of the show in a relatively brief conversation.
On our second ever episode, we put the White Evangelical support for Trump in historical perspective. …
After many requests, we begin the re-release of Season 1! On this first episode Brad and Dan introduce themselves and tell their stories of being evangelical youth group kids, ministers, and seminarians, and then …
On the last Weekly Roundup of the year, Brad and Dan discuss: 1) the myth of the stolen election and how it has gained legitimacy through support …
Ken Kemp is not the person you'd expect to be leading small groups and table talks helping White folks understand the histories of racism and …
Brad and Dan briefly touch on three stories: MAGA rebellion in Georgia, Obama on "Defund the Police," and the federal government's abandonment of the …
Dr. Sophie Bjork-James is an anthropologist at Vanderbilt University. She is a specialist in race, gender, and religion with a focus on White …
Brad speaks with journalist Anne Nelson whose book Shadow Network: Media, Money, and the Secret Hub of the Radical Right outlines in vivid detail the network of organizations, media empires, and churches that sync the …
Brad and Dan begin by drawing on a famous speech by Frederick Douglass in order to put the nail in the coffin on the idea that it is the Democrats' job to reach across the aisle. They then explain why Republicans think …
Brad speaks with Sarah Posner, author of Unholy: Why White Evangelicals Worship at the Altar of Donald Trump. They discuss how Trump is the result of …
Dan begins by explaining why Biden didn't underperform and why emotionally this should feel like a big win
He and Brad also discuss the White …
As we process the unfolding events related to the election, Brad and Dan discuss:
In the week before the election, Brad and Dan begin with another chapter of Falwell's Follies. Dan then explains why the polls are similar, but …
Dan speaks with Dr. David Gushee, Professor of Ethics and Director of the Center for Theology and Public Life at Mercer University. The former …
Opener: Brad and Dan each get 2 minutes uninterrupted on the last debate
Explainer: Hunter Biden non-scandal mularkey
Explainer: Pope announces he …
The episode that started it all! On one of our very first shows, we went to the historical record to quote all the evangelical leaders who did everything possible to decry Bill Clinton after his sex scandal/impeachment. …
Dan briefs us on the dueling presidential town halls before he and Brad explain the tenets of Constitutional Originalism, a legal philosophy Amy …
Brad speaks with Sarah Levin, the Co-Chair of the DNC's Interfaith Committee and the Founder of Secular Strategies, a firm dedicated to mobilizing …
Some major announcements! We are now a proud partner of the Capps Center at UCSB! Capps is dedicated to ethics, religion, and public life in a way that matches up seamlessly with our approach on SWAJ. Check out their …
Brad speaks to Professor Anthea Butler, a captain in the Biden campaign's "Catholics for Biden" initiative, and chair of the Religious Studies …
On an abbreviated Weekly Roundup Brad discusses the first presidential debate, the media's inability to call out Trump's threats of violence and …
Sarah Churchwell is Professor of American Literature and Chair of Public Understanding of the Humanities at the School of Advanced Study, University …
Brad and Dan discuss four main stories on this week's roundup:
1. The passing of Ruth Bader Ginsburg has led to Amy Coney Barrett as the frontrunner to replace her. Brad outlines the history and contours of the …
Brad speaks with historian Ricard Steigmann-Gall, author of the Holy Reich: Nazi Conceptions of Christianity 1919-1945. They discuss how the Nazi …
Brad and Dan discuss a coterie of stories at the intersection of race, nation, and religion. First, they dissect the president's announcement of a new commission on "patriotic education" as a thoroughly Christian …
Brad speaks with Dr. Sara Moslener, author of Virgin Nation: Sexual Purity and American Adolescence from Oxford University Press. Dr. Moslener …
Brad and Dan begin by discussing how 9/11 is an event marked by acts of civil religion--ceremonies, rituals, and symbols that enable the nation to …
During the first half of this episode Brad and Dan trace the racist and nationalistic origins of white evangelical politics. On the second half, Brad …
Brad interviews Dr. Leslie Dorrough Smith about her new book, Compromising Positions: Scandals, Politics, and American Christianity. She breaks down …
Dan confesses that 1st grade on Zoom is more intimidating than translating French philosophy or reading Hebrew. He and Brad then discuss the …
Brad and Dan discuss the vagaries of the new semester and the apocalyptic challenges posed by Zoom and Outlook. They then dissect the events in Kenosha, WI during the last week--from the shooting of Jacob Blake, the …
Brad and Dan discuss the latest of Falwell's Follies. They then analyze the presence of religion and faith at the Democratic convention, the fallout …
Dan laments the end of our favorite segment, Falwell's Follies. Then he and Brad discuss the interfaith and mixed-race background of Kamal Harris, …
Asha Dahya was a happy evangelical when she moved to LA from Australia. But the politics of the Religious Right led her out of the faith. Indian by …
Aaron Simmons has been asked to leave numerous churches over the last decade. Not over theology or the Bible. But because he votes the wrong way and …
Dominionists are shaping your life: from your kid's sex-ed program, to local gun laws, and national elections. They see themselves as called to rule …
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