Cover art for podcast Find The Outside

Find The Outside

79 EpisodesProduced by Tim Merry & Tuesday Ryan-HartWebsite

A lively, off-the-cuff conversation hosted by Tuesday Ryan-Hart and Tim Merry on large-scale systems change and equity. Together, Tim and Tuesday are THE OUTSIDE - systems change and equity facilitators who bring the fresh air necessary to organize movements, organizations, and collaborators forward… read more


1.08: Depth: How to stage the room for healing, momentum, and serious progress

In episode eight, Tim and Tuesday empathize with facilitators and collaborators separated by organizational difference or mandates — and explore how to go deep and draw out the greatest value.

1.08 —— SHOW NOTES

  • Recent favourite binge-worthy shows: The Good Place and Occupied.
  • When we set up people in a circle, we invariably wind up having it feel like therapy. This can make some of us feel open, and others feel resistant. As facilitators, what can we do to position depth as a path to the outcomes we want?
  • Question: Where does this fear of depth come from? What’s the narrative that makes staying out of depth and treating people as sub-human permissable?
  • Some people feel compelled to protect the patriarchy / white supremacy—especially those who have wealth, or who generate wealth for other people. —Tuesday
  • In change, people often struggle with leadership because they fear the work will cause a loss of relationships. This has a lot to do with the mechanistic worldview that is responsible for setting up our organizations, when we didn’t realize the interconnectedness of things, and when we treat human organizations as machines, striving for efficiency.
  • This organizational structure not only fails to acknowledge people’s humanity, but is fundamentally oppressive. It’s not like these organizations set free people’s potential.
  • Question: What allows or justifies the perpetuation of systems that are so unkind?
  • If you can make non-emotional judgement calls, you’re successful. That’s part of the programming I received from my parents: that you actually can’t lead if you’re empathetically or emotionally engaged with people. — Tim
  • Song of the day: Frank Turner’s Be More Kind
  • Poem of the day: Self Portrait by David Whyte

It doesn't interest me if there is one God

or many gods.

I want to know if you belong or feel


If you know despair or can see it in others.

I want to know

if you are prepared to live in the world

with its harsh need

to change you. If you can look back

with firm eyes

saying this is where I stand. I want to know

if you know

how to melt into that fierce heat of living

falling toward

the center of your longing. I want to know

if you are willing

to live, day by day, with the consequence of love

and the bitter

unwanted passion of your sure defeat.

I have heard, in that fierce embrace, even

the gods speak of God.

 -- David Whyte from Fire in the Earth

 ©1992 Many Rivers Press

Subscribe to the podcast now—in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher or anywhere else you find podcasts. New episodes will be available every second Tuesday. If you’d like to get in touch with us about something you heard on the show, reach us at

Find the song we played in today’s show—and every song we’ve played in previous shows—on the playlist. Just search ‘Find the Outside’ on Spotify.

Duration: 45:45

Produced by: Mark Coffin @ Sound Good Studios

Theme music: Gary Blakemore

Episode cover image: source

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