Cover art for podcast Find The Outside

Find The Outside

79 EpisodesProduced by Tim Merry & Tuesday Ryan-HartWebsite

A lively, off-the-cuff conversation hosted by Tuesday Ryan-Hart and Tim Merry on large-scale systems change and equity. Together, Tim and Tuesday are THE OUTSIDE - systems change and equity facilitators who bring the fresh air necessary to organize movements, organizations, and collaborators forward… read more


1.07: How to Make a Living: How to lead change and bring new energy when you've got to pay the bills

In episode seven, Tim and Tuesday invite us ‘backstage’ to share revelations and lessons along the path of making their work of systems change into a repeatable, bankable business.


  • Tim talks about his first entry into the working world, wanting to find a job that could make a difference. Tuesday notes that she never wanted to work for herself.
  • Many of us have that moment of taking on a massive amount of debt when we’re young—as soon as the bank notices us as a new source of interest—and we then spend the next several years working to pay it off. For some of us, that’s a wake-up call. —Tim
  • Tim describes ‘going feral’ and getting approved for a £10,000 credit card, and borrowing from mom and dad to pay it off to the tune of 35% of his income every month.
  • Tuesday took a course around limiting beliefs around money. She was asked to write down all of her beliefs about poor people, then about rich people—and the contrast in these thoughts was shocking.
  • Tim and Tuesday explore the friction of negotiating in systems change work. Even though we want to use our talents and skills to make positive change, we still have to pay the bills—so we have to push through that uncomfortable point of attaching money to our contribution.
  • How does growing up in poverty—or in abundance—influence us as entrepreneurs
  • How does a global network of contacts come into play when work is thin? How do we make the ask, and how can we make ourselves invaluable?
  • What other moments and windfalls helped propel us early on? Tim and Tuesday talk about managing the ebb and flow of inheritances, debt, grants, internships, and volunteering.
  • At what point does systems change work become ‘a real job’? What does that even mean? What does that transition look and feel like, and how can we manage it well?
  • The field of systems change facilitation didn’t exist until the early 2000s, when Art of Hosting began developing an architecture under all of these different processes.
  • Tim and Tuesday explore how saying NO to some work helps build your business.
  • Poem of the day: Mary Oliver's Work, Sometimes

Work, Sometimes

I was sad all day, and why not. There I was, books piled

on both sides of the table, paper stacked up, words

falling off my tongue.

The robins had been a long time singing, and now it

was beginning to rain.

What are we sure of? Happiness isn’t a town on a map,

or an early arrival, or a job well done, but good work

ongoing. Which is not likely to be the trifling around

with a poem.

Then it began raining hard, and the flowers in the yard

were full of lively fragrance.

You have had days like this, no doubt. And wasn’t it

wonderful, finally, to leave the room? Ah, what a


As for myself, I swung the door open. And there was

the wordless, singing world. And I ran for my life.

Mary Oliver

New and Selected Poems, Vol. II

  • Song of the day: Chaka Khan, Like Sugar

Subscribe to the podcast now—in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher or anywhere else you find podcasts. New episodes will be available every second Tuesday. If you’d like to get in touch with us about something you heard on the show, reach us at

Find the song we played in today’s show—and every song we’ve played in previous shows—on the playlist. Just search ‘Find the Outside’ on Spotify.

Duration: 42:55

Produced by: Mark Coffin @ Sound Good Studios

Theme music: Gary Blakemore

Episode cover image: source

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