Cover art for podcast Dynamic Duel: DC vs Marvel

Dynamic Duel: DC vs Marvel

39 EpisodesProduced by Johnny DC & Marvelous JoeWebsite

Get access to 200+ episodes by subscribing: or DC: Who is superior? Twin brothers Jon and Joe debate the answer through film reviews and mathematical fight simulations. New episode every Tuesday. Subscribe on your favorite podcast app!

Joker Review Episode Transcript

Transcription of our Joker Review episode

Listen to the Joker Review episode here!

[Music] hi and welcome to the dynamic duel podcast a weekly show where we review superhero films and debate through superiority between Marvel and DC by comparing their characters in step based battle simulations I’m Johnny DC and I’m his twin brother marvelous Joe and in this episode we are reviewing Joker this is gonna be such a difficult film to review because really any star rating you give this film is valid yeah it’s a very divisive film so I could see where anyone can make an argument for again really any star rating it’s the most art housey of all superhero comic book films and an arthouse is more focused on its message as opposed to mass appeal right exactly and we’ve defined art in this podcast before as communication through creation this movie definitely has a message to communicate and whether or not you appreciated it is subjective so there’s a lot of different viewpoints on this we’ll cover as many as we can as we break down this film later on in the episode yeah I can’t wait to get into it before we get to our review we’re gonna talk about the news items from the past week of which there were two trailers there’s the birds of prey trailer conveniently released for the Joker film yeah we figured that would happen and then there’s the runaway season 3 trailer which don’t cares about but we’re going to talk about as always our segment times are in our episode description so feel free to jump around to whatever point in the show you want to listen to Thanks to everyone who rated us on Apple podcasts we have 157 ratings on that platform now and the special thank you to sir haha gambit rogue forever jammer 34 and SRX 96 for leaving us reviews on iTunes as you guys know we’re trying to get to 200 ratings on Apple podcast in iTunes and that way our reviews of these Marvel and DC films become eligible to be counted toward Rotten Tomatoes official tomato meter we are really close guys we’re really close let’s keep up this momentum you guys have been awesome let’s keep going a special shout out to Bois de Winter who recently became an executive producer of this show through our patreon account that’s one of our tears it’s his birthday today as of this recording on October 6th so happy birthday happy birthday but oh and with that all out of the way quick to the mill price a no prize is an award Marvel used to give out up until the 90s to fans our version the dynamic duel no prize is a digital award that we post on social media that Jonathan personally draws for those who we feel gave the best answer to our question of the week segment last week’s question was who do you want to be the primary villain of the far from home sequel and why we didn’t get a huge variety of answers for this one but they were all great answers so the first honorable mention goes to Harrison Fox who gave the answer of Kraven and scorpion because both of them can hunt spider-man I really like that duo actually scorpion is one of my favorite spider-man villains and of course we’ve talked about Kraven being like the perfect villain thematically for this upcoming spider-man film now that Peter Parker’s secret identity is exposed Kraven has a target I always feel like Kraven could hunt scorpion as well oh that’s absolutely true Joe Seagrave gave the answer of kingpin and ultimate Kraven wanting a return of Vincent D’Onofrio from the daredevil Netflix show in the role that would be fantastic I loved Vincent d’Onofrio’s take on the character and ultimate Kraven was pretty funny he was like Crocodile Dundee he had his own reality show where he would hunt big game really yeah and then he got his ass kicked by spider-man and then you know gave himself animal powers basically like he was almost like a werewolf so it’s an interesting take on the character that I think would be well adapted to a film the problem with having the kingpin has a villain though is that technically her the Disney and Netflix deal Disney caves any of the characters from the Netflix shows for a good five years within the cinematic universe which means that kingpin and daredevil and Luke Cage Iron Fist Jessica Jones and Punisher campy in a Marvel movie until at least 20 23 and this spider-man movie comes out in 2021 that’s horrible that sucks honorable mention goes to Jaime what chick who gave the answer of chameleons and Kraven that’s a fantastic answer because chameleon and Kraven have teamed up in the comics before and again just dealing with the whole identity issue chameleon was great yeah yeah for sure great answer John Spees gave the answer of Kraven saying of course Red Hood gave the answer Kraven the hunter again because get a partner’s identity is out Brooks Lam didn’t gave the answer of Kraven the hunter because we’ve never seen him before on screen yeah so many different good reasons to go with Kraven which is also the answer that Jacob Bell gave and he said that Kraven should be played by Joe Manganiello I agree that Joe Manganiello would be a fantastic actor for the role because you know he really looks the part however Joe Manganiello played Flash Thompson in Rainey’s original spider-man trilogy so you would have Flash Thompson becoming Kraven the hunter in a sense we should yeah a little weird but that’s fine it’s not in the same universe plus he already had JK Simmons playing both universes so why not Joe Manganiello that’s true that’s true Jason Crump gave the answer of you guessed it who said that he would hunt Peter now that his secret identity is out and Erin Alexander Jones said he’s also jumping on the Craven bandwagon with an assist from the chameleon Jeff miles jr. gave a different answer he wants to see black cat in the kingpin because he wants to see that love triangle now that Peter Parker and MJ are kind of a couple now he wants to introduce that love triangle with the black cat don’t you do some conflict yeah yes nice Chris Castaneda gave the answer of scorpion and Jay jonah jameson they would team up like they have in the comics that’s a great duo right there honorable mention also goes to Shannon Sanderson who said he would like to see tombstone in the next spider-man film played by Mark Wahlberg yeah I like that answer Sanofi Ahmad said that kingpin or bullseye should be the villain because then you could have a daredevil team up and introduce the defenders characters into the MCU hopefully fingers crossed by 2023 this could be possible yeah they’ll be fantastic but the winners of this week’s no prize go to Beau Bermudez and manag desai who both gave the answer of sinister six beau Bermuda said that it could be comprised of all the villains that we’ve already seen and Manavi desai said it would be interesting to see how peter’s social and public life plays out as a group of villains get their revenge and I the reason I chose this answer is because I think with the end credits scene from far from home Peter Parker is now at his most vulnerable point both socially publicly in every way he’s extremely vulnerable and I think given the themes of the spider-man comics how he’s always shoulder to the great burden and responsibility I think now is the perfect time to strike for him to just be overwhelmed with a huge group of villains but who would they even be no do we have six well you can have vulture you could have scorpion you could have shocker Mysterio that’s four and you can introduce Kraven and another villain such as electro or Sandman I think that would be fantastic now it wouldn’t be true to the comic book version of the sinister six but you got to work with what you got I think it’ll still work the same so congrats again to Barbra meatus and manag Desai for winning this week’s no price if you the listener want to win your own no prize stay tuned to the rest of this episode where we’ll ask another question of the week another that’s done on to the news [Music] so if you listen to our podcast two episodes ago we talked about the birds of prey movies first poster and we basically crapped all over it because that’s just a horrible poster yeah that didn’t give me the highest of expectations going into the first trailer that we received this past Tuesday right and I have to say that’s probably a good thing because I would say so I really liked this trailer yeah it definitely exceeded my expectations I was expecting something a little bit more I don’t know stupid but what really won me over with this first birds-of-prey trailer I think was the action and the wild tone seems totally fitting yeah seems gritty it seems emotional and the cinematography I think is what blew me away yeah they did a good job there the colors and just the framing and the shots are just really beautiful it looks unique it looks like stuff that we haven’t seen before to use a metaphor I guess I was expecting something like Powerpuff Girls and what I ended up getting was I don’t know some badass anime like one punch man or something like that it does look badass it looks really badass I was surprised of course it’s also very Harley centric that I’m not surprised about because of the poster right I think the biggest criticism levied at this trailer from what I’ve seen online is why is it called birds of prey it should be called Harley Quinn and the birds of prey yeah right we mentioned that when we talked about the poster I think my biggest criticism of this trailer is that the characters still do not look any way shape or form like their comic-book counterparts so while it looks like an interesting movie it doesn’t look faithful at all still no no absolutely that’s pretty annoying and I think that would be an easier pill to swallow if we actually got to see more of the characters in this trailer you know we’re actually even introduced to them none of the other characters have really any lines in this film so for like a minor little snippets off screen huh I think would also help to see some more comic book elements like to see black Canary’s canary cry or black masks mask or you know Cassandra Cain kicking ass or something like that well we got a hint at the canary cry pretty early on in the trailer when Dinah is like singing at the microphone and you see this martini like start to vibrate like it’s about to shatter yeah we also do get hints of I don’t want to say black masks masks but we get hints of black masks and what it concerns me is that they’re GIMP masks oh no there was a scene when Roman sionis is like very distressed behind him is like this painting of someone wearing this black mask and it’s threaded it’s kind of gimpy like but later on it’s even more evident in pearly Quinn’s Merlin Monroe number that she’s doing oh yeah the guys around her are wearing like these stringed GIMP masks they don’t have like the zipper over their mouth but it looks very like BDSM interesting such a weird translation exactly I guess it’s a translation that one could make I don’t think it’s true to the character of the comics at all who’s more of her like a traditional evil gangster I guess this is just a way to add some flavor I think one of the biggest moments that stood out for me in this trailer was huntresses attack on those mobsters oh well they’re eating dinner and this is before I saw the Joker movie No so when she kicked the table into those guys and just shot them point-blank I was like that is so damn hardcore like that is exceptionally violent like you don’t even give them a chance to stand up and pull out their guns that Me’s gonna attack him when they’re vulnerable eating it does look like this movie is gonna make great use of its r-rating so it is gonna be rated R yeah I believe it is I mean we see a Harley Quinn jump on this guy’s like legs and just like break them and you get this like great Tarantino shot of the guy just like screaming in pain yeah that was pretty great the action overall in this looks like it’s really well done of course the action scenes are being directed by chance to hell ski you know who did the John wick films right so we know they’re gonna be great there’s the scene towards the end of the trailer where Harley Quinn sort of jumps onto the back of a car and then like does the sweet kick to the side of a guy’s head he falls off I’m pretty sure that stunt guy died because it looks like he went right for that back tire and he got kicked in the head with a pair of rollerskates it looks like it’s gonna be a really good action scene there’s a lot in this that I really like about Harley Quinn when she’s talking about how like I’m the one they should be afraid of not you not mr. J me freaking Quinn that was just a great line great delivery and just great visuals to go along with it I think the boy sounded spot-on with that line oh for sure it’s worth this whole trailer every one from the beginning when she’s talking about what a Harlequin is yeah I think the voice is is better than we’ve ever heard it coming from her certainly better than her acting in Suicide Squad the trailer doesn’t give away really anything in regards to story like we don’t know what the story of this film is gonna be yet yeah we know that essentially Harley Quinn is teaming up with the rest of them to attack black masks she’s protecting Cassandra Cain she works at the club that the black mask runs and I think though she worked for it I think Carly Quinn is a go-go dancer that’s why she’s dancing on the pole and Dyna is a singer of course what did you think of the final gag of the trailer where cassandra throws the dynamite out of the window like the whole like you don’t call a woman a chick kind of thing yeah I feel bad for it Cassandra came like she just killed those people like she just straight-up blew them up it was a catch-22 you can’t just hold the dynamite you got to throw it out the window it’s like a great bit of like mayhem like comedic mayhem that actually got a great reaction in the audience when I saw this trailer in theaters before the Joker movie the first time I saw the Joker movie I didn’t see this trailer the second time I did yeah people seem to respond well to it yeah so that’s encouraging as always we’ll see how the movie actually turns out and I guess a few months comes out in February yeah yeah I’m really curious though to see what our listeners thought of the trailer that brings us to our question of the week after seeing the first trailer for birds of prey are you more or less excited for the film and why post your answer to our Instagram Twitter Facebook or email us at dynamic duel podcast at we’ll pick our favorite answer and draw that person a dynamic duel no prize that will post to social media the other trailer that we got ahold of this past week actually this trailer this runaway season 3 trailer was released at New York Comic Con from which very little news was released there’s a lot of comic news but not like comic movie news right I did really enjoy this season 3 trailer though as you guys know if you’ve listened to our runaway season 2 review I’m not a huge fan of the show it’s not really my thing you know it’s a little bit too teenage drama for me and then not enough superhero action but this trailer has me excited because it really seems to be amping up the superhero action compared to previous seasons because we have our first real comic book villain outside of the pride you know the group’s parents in the character of Morgan la Fey and she’s being portrayed by the actress Elizabeth Hurley who I had no idea was gonna be in season 3 she looks amazing I haven’t seen her and since probably like bedazzled was the last movie I was just about to say that yeah Frasor yeah she looks great but she introduces kind of like this magical element to the show the way season 2 ended you know the aliens that jonah was a part of their ship blew up and their essence kind of like scattered into the parents the pride parents that were still around and one of the aliens went into one of the kids now if you guys have read your runaways comics it may be easy to guess which one of these characters is going to turn out to be the mole the traitor yeah I don’t want to give that away here I might be wrong I think the trailer is trying to set it up as if Niko is like the one that’s been tainted yeah that’s the way it’s portrayed in this trailer I don’t think that she’s being tainted through alien possession though I think she’s being tainted by a Morgan la Fey in there again they’re introducing this magical element where we finally see the staff of one you know protrude from Nico’s chest as it does in the comics yeah that was pretty damn cool looking so we’re seeing a lot more elements brought in that are more fantastical more true to the comics a little bit grounded it seems like the budget has gone up basically for this series and that’s super exciting for me really the only thing I’m excited about is the appearance of cloak and dagger yeah wasn’t that fantastic that was like a nice little bookmark at the end of this trailer where we see cloak and dagger from the free-form television show cloak and dagger those characters are showing up and making an appearance here and I absolutely love that show as much of a Teenage Drama the cloak and dagger television series also is I think it’s done a lot more successfully than the run away show and so I’m glad to see that those characters are being brought in because I think it’ll make this show better yeah I imagine the cloak and dagger show doesn’t have to juggle as many characters and side plots right like that right it will just the actors are better are be Joseph and Olivia Holt are just they’re fantastic actors the amount of emotional heft they bring to cloak and dagger is just amazing now the recurrent rumor is that both of those shows right aways and cloak and dagger aren’t going to be renewed for new seasons because I heard that remember all Marvel television series outside of animation will be brought under the Marvel Studios banner right and it’s going to be airing strictly on the Disney Plus platform as opposed to any other platform that’s why Ghost Rider was cancelled from Hulu yeah and it’s likely the hellström will also be canceled but I I don’t necessarily have a problem with that I like having everything under one studio that way we know these shows are in the MCU unlike the Netflix series where it was a little bit vague the whole universe could play off of itself a little bit better that way I think yes only one more season of Runaways to review that I never have to do it again that review will be coming out probably sometime in early January from us yeah yeah if you’re a fan of The Runaways and you haven’t seen this trailer yet definitely check it out on YouTube there’s a lot to be excited about for the upcoming season but I think that does it for all the news of this episode so let’s go ahead and get into the main event where we review the film Joker [Music] okay Joker before we get into this there’s a lot to talk about if you haven’t seen the film you’re doing yourself a disservice by spoiling all of this for you because there’s a lot of shocks a lot of surprises in it yeah and this is a spoiler review as all of our reviews are I’d recommend that if you’re on the fence about seeing it and you’re not a big Batman fan you should maybe wait until it’s available to stream at home where you can absorb and study the film without having to be uncomfortable around a bunch of strangers I made the mistake of over hyping the film to a bunch of co-workers and we all went to see it as a group boy was that awkward I didn’t quite know what to say about the film afterward I knew the film wasn’t really my cup of tea but I also recognized that it’s the kind of film that takes me a few screenings to fully appreciate like Clockwork Orange or taxi driver or or One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest right now it admittedly takes me a while to grapple with uncomfortable disturbing films yeah I mean it’s it’s not a fun film it’s an angry film it’s a film with an angry message basically it does raise valid issues of mental health and society but the movie has no heroes no no you’re absolutely right it doesn’t I need to admit if you’ve been a longtime listener of our podcast you know I really disliked the idea of a joker origin film when it was first announced I don’t think the Joker needs an origin I think he’s more frightening when he’s just this ambiguous manifestation of chaos I wasn’t too excited either that Todd Phillips was directing his past work of films was like road trip old school and the hangover trilogy Phillips who wrote the Joker as well as directed it and he did receive an Oscar nomination for best screenplay for the film Borat so at the very least I thought this film would be funny but boy was I wrong I didn’t really come around on the film until we started seeing the first set footage of Joaquin Phoenix after the trailers with her sweeping magnificent background music and after it won the Golden Lion at the Venice Film Festival and the initial wave of rave reviews huh it should come as a surprise to no one that I went into the film with unbelievably high didn’t I tell you to check him I tell you to check him every single time you never listen to me I was expecting a psychological thriller and instead I feel like we got in a psychological downer I think what I wanted was a movie about Heath Ledger’s Joker character from The Dark Knight and and this movie was not that like don’t go into this movie expecting something like that I think I would have liked that more because Ledger’s Joker was larger than life you know and that’s why we even read and watched superhero stories for the portrayal of fantastical characters who aren’t real doing incredible things in a battle of good versus evil stories that generally speaking are fairly black and white in their portrayal of morality and especially when it comes to DC stories yes because DC has always been much more fantastical as opposed to Marvel which has been a little bit more relatable sci-fi relatable yeah yeah this story was not an escape this Joker was not larger than life he was very real feeling yeah and at the end of the day I guess I’m just personally not a huge fan of movies that don’t have heroes within this particular genre and aren’t larger-than-life I agree I mean don’t get me wrong this film is good Todd Phillips deserves any and all accolades he gets from this film but it’s also a tragedy you know it’s uncomfortable it’s joyless it has zero levity or fun like you mentioned whenever we’re deciding what rating to give a film one of the questions we ask ourselves is did the film transcend the superhero genre few comic book films have been able to do that The Dark Knight did so did Watchmen and Logan hid yeah I wouldn’t say this film transcended the superhero genre because they didn’t start there to begin with it’s not a conventional comic book movie so I wouldn’t be surprised if MCU fans hate this film and not just MCU fans but like anyone who expected a conventional story you know in the standard three act hero’s journey you have a broken character who grows into a whole hero by the end and as you mentioned there are no heroes in this movie there’s no one to root for Arthur never becomes whole he just breaks and breaks until he completely shatters and it’s really hard to watch him grow more violent and on yeah I mean you said that this movie wasn’t really your cup of tea I have to ask you would you ever have seen this film if it wasn’t called the Joker probably down the line because I’ve seen films like taxi driver I’ve seen films like Clockwork Orange he’s disturbing films especially if it was getting Oscar buzz I probably would have seen it the tale of like a psychopathic serial killer devolving into madness well well Todd Phillips um mentioned that he wanted to make a film like that from tackling mental illness a film that tackled society but give it added attention by attaching a comic book characters name to it to give it that appeal yeah and that’s exactly what this one in that respect this film maybe Joker in name only like this may not be the comic book talker that we know and love to hate that being said I think they also made this film in a way that leaves it open for the introduction of more fantastical elements I would love to see Joker take on Batman in a sequel of course Joker will be like 40 years older than Batman would write a little bit weird yeah but who knows you could almost consider this like in Elseworlds I know when Todd Phillips was pitching this film he was saying hey this could be part of something called like DC black label and we can create this whole sort of mature universe for black label not necessarily connected films but films you couldn’t tell under like a normal DC brand something much more mature yeah which i think is a good idea I think Marvel should do the same thing we’ll see if that happens I mean the Joker has already broken box-office records for October yeah bee venom so I’d be really shocked if Warner Brothers didn’t want to kind of carry this momentum forward into a franchise uh-huh but but we’ll see you know ultimately what I think makes this film and this world so successful was the message of the film you know the film isn’t comfortable not just because of its horrific violence but because of its message from the opening scene when we see Arthur Fleck Don his clown makeup we hear about Gotham City’s garbage strike and it’s a great analogy to how negativity like the trash builds up over time when people are too stubborn to see the other perspective and compromise yeah there’s a social divide in Gotham City in a way that feels very real to contemporary America oh definitely you know this film was set in the shit that’s going on nowadays yeah you know Arthur’s character notices in the film that it feels like society is getting crazier and no matter your political slant I think everyone can agree with that notion right now we’ve had dozens of mass shootings this year in America politicians are name-calling protesters are rioting extremism is on the rise because we’re refusing to see the other perspective and compromise you know the film aggressively points out the apathy corrupting society and it’s uncomfortable to watch because it points out that in a way we’re all complicit for the state of society because we’re all either full of rage like the cloud rioters or we’re apathetic like Thomas Wayne or Murray Franklin yeah which makes us responsible for the chaos in society and the chaos according to the Joker at the end of this film is what we deserve but if you dismiss this film just because it makes you uncomfortable how is that any different from dismissing a character like Arthur Fleck if we’re going to make progress as a society we need to step out of our comfort zone yeah and I think that’s the central message of this film I definitely agree with that movies like this have their place within the broader culture you take a movie that like elephants which was about the Columbine shootings the movie is no fun to watch just like this was I didn’t enjoy it no but it’s important to see because in a way it brings that dark reality closer to home and makes you confront it in a way that you wouldn’t have otherwise if you didn’t see the movie if the other characters in this film would have shown compassion and civility toward Arthur if they cared enough to see the warning signs from this one seemingly insignificant citizen of Gotham the city could have saved itself from becoming a hell the film is an extreme example of how highly populated cities like Gotham or New York or so many people interact with each other small interactions have rippling effects and you never know how showing one person compassion even if you feel like they’re weird or different can go farther than you realize toward healing Society and tide raises all ships right although I guess and in the case of this film when you sow the wind you reap the whirlwind yeah I think that when I first walked out of the theater I thought that it didn’t even really work as a cautionary tale because I was like well what’s what’s the lesson be nice to people I’m nice to people you know yeah this message is not for me I don’t get anything out of this and I think that was actually part of the problem my mindset yeah because actually I am part of the problem I’ve done things that were not nice to other people that was a lesson that I learned the hard way this year like my actions have hurt people not physically but you know they’ve heard people that I care about people I consider friends and more and in my head i justified myself but suppose a justification doesn’t save you from consequences right you know those three subway yuppies were horrible people Robert De Niro’s late-night talk-show host could be characterized as horrible and Joker may have been occasionally sympathetic in this movie by outside of self-defense or the defense of others there’s never really a reason to take someone’s life and you know obviously right I don’t need to tell you that this movie is about a villain after all but the movies message is going to be construed in so many different ways and what concerns me are the people who see this film and feel emboldened to carry out their own personal vendettas and and give others quote what they deserve right right you know most people who see this film will probably be triggered into worrying about gun violence and I don’t want to dismiss that because if you think about it the catalyst for this whole story is Arthur Fleck getting his hands on a gun right but I do think this film makes a strong case for treating mental illness which some argue is the underlying issue behind mass shootings now I like you you know we’ll admit that I am NOT the most compassionate of people I learned this the hard way you know during the drive home with my wife Barbara after we saw the movie for the first time you know as I mentioned earlier I didn’t really like this film the first time I saw it because this film is a character study and because I couldn’t relate to the character of Arthur Fleck with such a severe mental illness I rejected the Arthur character pretty early on yeah and because he’s such a major part of the film he’s like in every scene I found myself rejecting the film as a whole as I watched it and I think it was a defense mechanism for how uncomfortable and shocking the film was my wife much more compassionate than me I wouldn’t say she liked the film but she recognized its intelligence in a way that I didn’t at first I couldn’t understand how she could sympathize with Arthur but she made me realize that there’s a difference between feeling pity for a victim and condoning their bad decisions yes sympathy versus condoning yeah exactly the film is intelligent in that as much as you disagree with everyone’s bad decisions you understand why the characters making them even with Arthur yeah Arthur felt really real in this movie the whole movie felt especially real even more so than like grounded superhero films like The Dark Knight which we’ve always said oh this feels real right take place in reality right no it couldn’t just when you thought it couldn’t get any more real it totally does yeah but I think that this film does highlight why vigilantism doesn’t work in the real world because determining who deserves justice and how it should be carried out is incredibly subjective that’s why comic books need super villains is why they never delve into the likely tragic histories of petty criminals you know I won’t say comics need to stick to those fantasy tropes I mean comics are just a medium after all but I will say that in the Marvel and DC world of superhero fantasy action those tropes have their place we don’t necessarily want to know that Batman’s beating up a poor person you know and that poor person is like a victim of child abuse right and right you know suffering from a mental illness that they have to receive medication for and they’re doing this to get the money for that migration yeah and it’s likely the case that that’s happened right now yeah yeah like I said that’s why you need supervillains the irony is that in this movie The Joker becomes far worse than the people he hated you know he wants to give others what they deserve but chose not to pull the trigger on himself for his crimes it’s hypocrisy and at the very end his message did seem political he wanted to see society destroyed perhaps to rebuild a better one which is a solution to society’s ills but much more destructive than simply working to heal society which is something that Arthur could have done but of course he was too damaged to do it’s where they like I’ve always thought Bruce Wayne could do more with his billions of dollars to help fix Gotham than he ever could as Batman just beating up poor people well he’s a philanthropist in the comics yeah but you never really see the results of that in the comics that’s true that’s very true although I mean like Arthur in this movie did work as a clown and did try to bring happiness and laughter to other people like the kids in the Children’s Hospital and stuff so he was kind of doing his part and you could see how much he wanted that you could see how much Oh King Phoenix wanted to bring joy to the world in his performance oh I could believe you made it this far into the review and we haven’t mentioned Joaquin Phoenix’s performance it was a tour de force greater than dare I say Heath Ledger’s portrayal of the Joker in the Dark Knight and that’s not a knock on Heath Ledger I actually like his version of the Joker more than Phoenix’s and I think Ledger was more unrecognizable as an actor in that role which i think is a huge compliment yeah but Phoenix had the benefit of more screen time and his performance was so raw it didn’t feel like a performance at all it was a hammy or manufactured it was just sad and disturbing and real yeah I was really relieved that these two performances were nothing to like yeah what Keane Phoenix really made this his own thing for sure I think the initial concern was that these characters would be very much alike and I think that’s why a lot of people that leave this film not liking it probably went in expecting something a lot more like Heath Ledger’s Joker the characters look alike that’s part of the problem yeah exactly just because you replace like panda mascara eyes for like blue triangles is it enough of a difference right they should have cut his hair or something yeah yeah they should have Phoenix played Arthur’s like very timid and painfully awkward his uncontrollable laugh looked like it was physically painful I hope they didn’t do too many takes with that because yeah it looked like he was actually choking on his laugh each one of those scenes where that happened like when he’s first talking to a psychiatrist or we’re like when he was on stage trying to get those jokes at yes it was so hard to watch the bus scene as well yeah yeah he started the film just invisible to society just this poor starving guy with delusions of bringing joy to the world do you remember in our Joker vs. Green Goblin episode I mentioned how great of a foil the Joker is to Batman and that Batman adopted this like demonic dark Horned winged facade to bring about good and the Joker presents himself as a fun colorful joyful clown figure yeah to enact evil and bring about chaos yeah that’s great this film is like Joker Begins and we get to see early on how the clown aspect was sincerely intended to bring joy initially yeah but bad things kept happening to Arthur and no one cared he gets jumped he gets fired he gets jumped again he loses his psychiatrist and access to medication his believe it father punches him in the face and his mom suffers a stroke it’s more than anyone could possibly be expected to bear he was powerless in life until he shot those yuppies on the train and you could see right after that once he escaped to that public restroom they had never before felt that kind of power it was an intoxicating that was haunting that whole scene that I appreciated it so much more the second time I saw it Phoenix’s performance and the music that he’s flowing to it’s meditative it’s almost like Tai Chi or something like that he’s like improvised Tai Chi it was mesmerizing again he was just drunk on that power and I think that’s why he admitted that he didn’t feel bad about the killing and why he kept doing it and that’s that’s scary as shit it really is and that’s a testament to what kyun Phoenix is acting ability I really hope he gets the nomination I don’t know if he’ll win I hope he wins but he definitely deserves at least an Oscar nomination for this role I would be flabbergasted if he did not get nominated he’s gonna get nominated yeah let’s be real he’s gonna get I mean Aquaman doesn’t get nominated for Best Visual Effects yes totally deserted yeah that everybody gets what they deserve yeah one of my favorite scenes with Arthur was him daydreaming about being on Murray Franklin’s show you know Murray didn’t have a large role but it was important yeah Robert De Niro’s performance was pretty par for the course I think it was cast as an homage to his work in taxi driver and the King of Comedy to Martin Scorsese films that have been as an inspiration for this film it’s pretty evident that it was yeah kind of made for not the most exciting talk show host though I think I’d be tuning in to a different show I think he seemed just a little bit tired I think yeah our Thursday dream scene did such a good job of not only showing how awkward Arthur was but of how much he idolized and loved Murray yeah and everything he represented like he was a father figure to him almost yeah it also set up the fact that we shouldn’t necessarily trust everything that we see in the film absolutely Arthur is an unreliable narrator yeah which you know comes into play later on in the film you know but that scene it made it so much more heartbreaking when Murray teases Arthur on television and it makes the case for why Arthur would see the world as as a hypocritical joke Thomas Wayne was a hypocrite too he was played by Brett Cullen in a role that originally belonged to Alec Baldwin before he was recast Thomas Wayne was shown on television saying how Wayne Enterprises employees were like family yet he ignored the well-being of his former employee penny Arthur’s mom and he dropped the adoption bomb on Arthur without any empathy right no yeah he had a severe lack of empathy in this movie including when he described anybody who didn’t make something of themselves and society was a clown it’s hard to make something of yourself in life you know it’s not an easy thing to do not everybody can do it and that just because they don’t have the ability to but because of external factors right you know and who knows what you know making something of yourself even really means being a billionaire I guess so or like co-hosting cabañas podcast that’s what I think it means personally is this about as podcast I think so yeah well that’s subjective my friend I like the ambiguity that came with the character of Thomas Wayne and whether or not he was even more of an asshole than the movie portrayed him out to be in that he was rich and influential enough to fake adoption papers for Arthur’s mom and have her institutionalized and all this other shit yeah that’s what penny said but again yeah you’re right she’s institutionalized who’s gonna believe her right where do you fall on that debate do you think that Thomas is Arthur’s father I don’t think so now I like to think of Thomas Wayne as a good man he came across as you know pretty harsh in this film but I still think he needs to be that sort of like moral foundation for Bruce and for Gotham you know yeah way okay yeah I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt but speaking of penny like penny Fleck wasn’t any better than the rest of them like at one point it kind of seemed like she adopted Arthur maybe just to trying to legitimize an affair she had with Thomas Wayne mm-hmm that was the case and it didn’t work she was complicit in the physical trauma and abuse Arthur received as a child by her boyfriend yeah that’s so whoring horrible horrible people and yet Arthur bathed her and fed her while he starved goddamn this movie Sam it is and it’s so real you know people really live like this like there are these heartbreaking stories out there everyone has one it seems like and it’s all just heartbreaking don’t give up that’s the message that we should take away from this not you know give people what they deserve it should be don’t give up yeah yeah exactly choose love like Wonder Woman you know yeah I choose love the one good person in the film I think besides Gary the little person clown with Sophie Dumont who was Arthur’s neighbor played by ZZ beats it was such a small role it was smaller than I thought it was going to be yeah me too I thought this was gonna be like a whole arc not only was his love life not really an arc in this it turned out to all be bullshit anyway right but I saw that coming did you see that guy I totally saw that come yet it was like the language of the film I think that their first moment when she shows up at his door and she’s like did you follow me and his reaction where he’s like yeah yeah I’m like okay I call bullshit on that I don’t think Arthur was the type of person who would have said that and then like her response before she left was you know you’re so funny it seemed like a fantasy scenario it totally did and they kind of also really gave it away in that the scene where he like stormed into her apartment and kissed her yeah they established the fact that he had been in her apartment before yet right before he ambiguously kills her he’s exploring her apartment as if he’s never seen it before yeah do you think that he killed her it’s kind of a Schrodinger’s cat situation you know you know that thought experiment where you put the cat in the box with a cyanide capsule that has a you close the box and speaking in terms of like quantum physics the cat is neither alive nor dead it exists in like this quantum state until you open the box and that version of reality kicks in at that moment right right I would like to think he let her live I’m an optimist because he let Gary the clown live yeah you know it’s not like Sophie did anything to him yeah he is still at his heart sort of in this film a good person or at least he’s bad to people who treat him badly uh-huh I don’t think Sophie did that but he killed the psychiatrist at the very end of the movie who seemed to be treating him well but that was when he was like in full Joker mode okay we also did see sirens in the following shot coming to his building yeah and he was laughing uncomfortably I don’t know if she lived or died I just say that she’s in a quantum state she’s neither alive nor dead until they decide to release that scene yeah I’ll take it I’ll take it because I don’t want her to be dead I do think she was a good person that’ll probably the only good person in the film the only mistakes she made was performing an insensitive yet seemingly innocent gesture of blowing her brains out yeah Arthur felt she was a kindred spirit became obsessed with her stalked her and eventually again ambiguously maybe maybe didn’t kill her so fucking heartbreaking and yet again something I saw coming a mile away I feel really jealous for the people who didn’t see that like how devastating would that scene have been it would have been a reveal watching The Sixth Sense all over again I know right exactly that reveal was a little ham-handed yeah that’s one of the things that I think the movie did a little bit clumsily as well made as the movie was I think all you needed for that scene for that reveal it was to hear her say your name’s Arthur right you live down the hall and in that moment you would know that everything else where she was around was just not true exactly I mean it’s a smart film it doesn’t need to hold the audience’s hand like that necessarily exactly exactly we mentioned earlier that the catalyst for this whole kind of story that happens in this film is when Arthur gets a gun and man that gun breasts so much tension every time it was on screen like from the moment he first has it out and it starts dancing with it you know and he’s like saying that was a funny scene it was a funny scene it was also horrifying yes a lot of the jokes in this way what do you think was the funniest moment of this film there weren’t a lot but the ones that were there I think you know did get a laugh from the audience I think the funniest joke was when he was like oh I forgot to punch out and he just like punches the clock box yeah you know the clown shop was funny he also ran into the glass door at the hospital yeah that was pretty funny I actually think that the funniest joke of this whole movie was probably the darkest and it was right when he got done killing his clown buddy that gave him the gun and the little person was stepping over the body to get to the door and Arthur like joked around with him like to scare him that was so uncomfortable but got so much nervous laughter it was like the most uncomfortable scene in the entire film I hated that scene the first time I saw it well it was kind of like a horror movie because like then you see that the little guy can’t reach the lock you know so you assume that he’s gonna die too both times I saw the film the audience was laughing during this scene and you know I kind of worked myself up to laughing the second time I said the first time I was like what’s wrong with you people this guy’s about to die you didn’t laugh at him scaring him no that was scary I was legit scared be he’ll he looked really scary in that scene you know just like a white face and the blood splatter the bright red blood splatter on the wall yeah and the splatter on his face yeah it was a horror scene yeah funny at least in retrospect yeah yeah once you get past the shock of it and you could kind of appreciate it a little bit more it was funny it was funny and kudos to Todd Phillips for being able to pull that off yeah because I don’t think I’ve ever been so I guess humored is the right word and horrified at the same time so many emotions yeah another scene with the gun that got me was when he was dancing in the hospital with the children and that was funny the gun fell out that you say funny I have two daughters to me that was a really horrifying scene it’s like oh my gosh that just happened oh my gosh you know I felt more bad for him I didn’t think that anybody was necessarily in danger at that moment I would not be so sure he shot a bullet through his wall in the scene previous that’s true in the scene prior to that yeah he was just really careless with it yeah and of course he got fired you know right after that and that was a powerful scene you know him smashing his head into the phone booth you know that led to the killing of the yuppies on the train yeah those yuppies those guys were assholes yeah throwing french fries at people stealing bags it’s just messed up I’m not gonna say that they deserve to die I don’t think anyone the Arthur killed deserve to die but they can’t be called out as assholes but they can’t get kicked in the dick yes exactly that would have been great I thought it was especially cold-blooded when Arthur chased down the Yuppie that was trying to escape up the stairs he could have just left it as him shooting him in the leg but he didn’t know and he unloaded on him in the back until he was out of bullets right like he was just so full of wrath in that moment I think it was necessary to make him unsympathetic though because he did kind of act in self-defense so from some perspective you could say that it was justified but he needed to cross that line so that it was no longer justified let’s talk about a stand-up act initially from the trailer I thought he was just playing to an empty crowd just planked his desi beats yeah that wasn’t the case which just made it all the more horrific yeah I wonder if the crowd actually laughed at his jokes though at some point because the music kind of swelled at that point and you couldn’t understand what he was saying and you couldn’t hear if the audience was laughing or not you know when he was laughing you could hear snippets of people laughing and I’m not sure if it’s just because laughter is infectious or if they were sort of like laughing at him in either case you know he definitely walked away happy yeah you felt good about himself he came home on a high he came home I started dancing with his mom right and of course that was all shot down at the reveal that he may be Thomas Wayne’s son it’s a really interesting angle for the Joker and it’s a great way to connect him to Bruce Wayne who we see you know not too long after in his Clubhouse sliding down the pole you know and the nice omage to the bat-pole yeah from the sixties Batman television show yeah going into the Batcave yeah that was pretty cool that was a cool scene I actually really liked that scene you know when he’s doing magic for the young Bruce Wayne there was some interesting magic he definitely did cross the line when he put his fingers in his mouth gross and I understand why Alfred reacted the way he did yeah Alfred it was interesting I never quite pictured him looking like that when Arthur gets rejected by Alfred and you know later on he goes to confront Thomas Wayne himself at that hall where they’re watching the Charlie Chaplin modern times yeah that was such a stark contrast between the people sitting in that theater and the people protesting outside yeah for sure the disparity is just incredible and it’s very true to the real world you know where we hear more and more how the top 10% most wealthy people in America own like 90% of the wealth well that’s pretty close to like the 8020 rule that’s it’s kind of universal I think it’ll always kind of be that way but they could be using their their money to such a better purpose than you know going to see Charlie Chaplin especially when you know you’re calling them clowns and these people are riding outside I feel like with all the governmental and societal problems that Gotham has to have a bunch of fat cats sitting in the theater laughing at Charlie Chaplin a guy who plays the character called the Tramp who is you know an impoverished character it was pretty decent commentary on where Todd Phillips fell on the whole Occupy Wall Street movement that was around a few years ago yeah there’s a lot of societal commentary in this film Arthur learns and that bathroom scene with Thomas Wayne that his mom was an inmate at arkham asylum or I guess Arkham state hospital yeah they should have kept it Asylum they should have they should have but he goes over there any any visits to the hospital and he gets the file on his mother which was just a tragic scene especially with him laughing you know laughing but also crying at what he’s reading about how his mother treated him when he was a kid about why he has this condition yeah it’s a physically inflicted condition and that just makes the character all the much more sympathetic of course in the scene soon after he kills his mom yeah but that’s like important to again take away the sympathy of the character much like the subway scene when you feel sorry for him he immediately has to almost cross that line I love how he mentioned how much he hated the Fleck name and how much he’s always hated that yeah and I think that was sort of one of the reasons why he wanted to be introduced as Joker because he didn’t want to be associated with his previous name it adds a little bit of mystery as to the true identity of the Joker by making him adopted in this movie if he is indeed adopted which feels comic book a cure which was nice the scene after that where he’s practicing his guest spot you know oh man that was one of the hardest scenes to watch for me I think they’re just so cavalier with the concept of suicide it was disturbing and I just couldn’t imagine how horrifying that would be to actually see something like that on television through a knock-knock joke I mean the audience still saw someone get shot and that that was a brutal scene that scene was probably the most iconic moment of this film his whole speech at the end with Marie just calling him out for being a hypocrite calling a society for being a pathetic calling a society for dictating the rules and mores and even what humor is it was powerful stuff I thought the line where he said who cares if these guys died if I died you would just walk over me on the street I thought that was extremely powerful because it’s true you know it goes back to what the Joker said in the Dark Knight there are certain people that society just expects to die you know game bankers soldiers that they don’t feel as much for you know yeah and he was kind of pointing out that people saw those yuppie character guys even though they were assholes as more valuable their lives are more valuable than his own right and that’s not right because all life is valuable but then he takes a life so as a kid so that exposes the hypocrisy in his own philosophy I thought Phoenix’s performance was particularly angry at that point and it was like a real type of anger to where he’s like jacked up on adrenaline because after he shoots Murray you know he’s doing like the leg shaking thing you know and he’s kind of experiencing the rush of it and I think that’s why he shoots him again oh yeah absolutely I mean during that whole speech towards the end you could see like the anger and the hatred building up in him it almost looks like in some moments Arthur is gonna start crying because he’s just so angry at the audience who’s booing him they’re not understanding what he’s trying to say you know and he’s just calling them out as horrible people it was a really powerful performance I think it’s the moment that were really hot people for days after they see this movie it certainly haunted me yeah I love the way they ended the scene - you know where he goes up to the camera and he’s like and don’t forget that’s life and it you know cuts him off before he finishes but we just see all these screens and we’ve seen news footage reacting to what he has done and we could you see it played over and over again and it’s just so like it’s a weird way to process like what just happened yeah I almost feel like the movie should have cut from there too Arkham Asylum and the at the end would be because the whole scene where he’s going through Gotham and of course you know this whole scene was necessary because I set up the death of the Wayne’s but I feel like this whole scene where he’s rescued and then like he’s praised by this mob of people I think that’s where the movie made a mistake because anybody who identified with that society in this film now feels like they should be praising the Joker I don’t think the Joker is someone to be lionized or to be idolized or anything like that so I think it really sent the wrong message he’s but surely understand why those people in the film those characters in the film would idolize him because he called our society for its lack of compassion which is what they feel they’re lacking yeah it makes sense for the context of the movie and for those people but I don’t think that the film should have showed it because it really portrayed the Joker as a heroic figure yeah I guess I don’t get what the point of showing that was and I think this is the scene where it actually finds a lot of its detractors I think at the very least it wanted to show that people idolized him enough to copy him so that there were copycats that resulted in the death of the Wayne’s so yeah maybe showed that scene but skip the part where he’s standing up on the car getting praised by everybody cuz it just feels like a miscommunication I could see that but I also thought that him like smearing the blood across his face I mean it was pretty much pretty powerful I don’t want to say it was powerful I would say it was creepy it was powerfully creepy there were audible gasps in the audience when they realized that all of this cast was leading to the Wayne’s death what a great way to do that you know it’s kind of interesting how it films like Batman Begins in The Dark Knight the Joker was sort of a response to Batman you know he was the escalation yeah in this version Batman is a response to the chaos wrought by the Joker now the Joker seems to be kind of thinking about that response in the last scene in this movie when he’s in Arkham Asylum thinking about this joke that he doesn’t tell the psychiatrist because she won’t understand and it yeah he thinks it’s funny that Bruce Wayne’s parents died you think he was laughing at that specifically yeah I interpreted it as maybe he was laughing at the concept of somebody rising up to challenge him I don’t think he is that kind of foresight no that’s true he doesn’t seem particularly intelligent in this movie like he wasn’t like a smart Joker he wasn’t like a criminal mastermind right like Heath Ledger although he his identity kind of changed at the end of this movie so there’s no telling where it could go he’s lost all of his ties to his previous life judging by his entrance on the Murray show he can totally transform himself oh yeah absolutely there was a huge transformation and I think that was kind of symbolized as he was kind of like slowly dancing before he walked through the curtain it was just so eerie like when he first started out he was like really stiff and creaky he almost looked like a body rising from the grave and he slowly transformed into this Joker character something much more smooth yes it’s almost like yeah more confident him stepping through the curtain was like a rebirth yeah yes absolutely and of course he has like a similar strut as he’s walking down the hallway of Arkham Asylum and the last shot of this movie yeah that was horrifying I definitely did a double-take there I was like wait wait ah that’s blood so they’d be like kicking the psychiatrist body or something like that no I think you would have had blood splatter on his pant legs if you did that I think he stepped through a pool of her blood oh shit yeah that’s the end of the film the film is almost perfect the pacing drags a bit but it has great performances great writing great cinematography but the movie is not for everyone I for one hope my daughter’s never see it uh-huh I probably won’t be buying it honestly Wow for that reason and because I can’t recommend it to everyone I can’t give it five stars as good as the film is I’m settling closer to four stars yeah I would agree with that I mean this movie is very much like Clockwork Orange and taxi driver and those type of movies that I don’t like watching I don’t find any enjoyment out of watching gum but they do communicate a message that I think needs to be communicated and so it has value in that it has value in its artful presentation so yeah if you get four and a half stars but I knock solely subjectively because of that enjoyment factor I do like to enjoy the movies that I see you know I don’t like walking out of them feeling like shit but it’s always something to be commended when a movie can make you think you know when it can actually draw a response out of you and into that regard I think this is actually an important movie despite how unpleasant it is I think it’s the most important film I’ve seen in quite a few years honestly yeah hopefully we’ll see how well this film ages you know I think it’ll age well but I’m talking like decades from now you know society probably will have changed by that time so will this film still be as relevant I don’t think Society will change all that much you look at a film like Clockwork Orange that was made and condemned in the 1970s you know but it still feels relevant when you watch it today wow that’s a really pessimistic thought but yeah that’s very true and on that note we won’t know what you guys think of the film let us know yeah I’m eager to hear your opinions I know there are as many opinions out there as there are people that have seen the movie you know and at the end of the day you don’t have to agree with us this is probably the most subjective comic book movie ever to come out in terms of how you feel about it I know I like I feel like you can’t even argue with anyone on their take of the film and just like yep you’re absolutely right yeah yeah which is why I’m especially keen on hearing what people have to say so reach out to us on social media and Facebook Instagram or Twitter and you can find links to all of our social media profiles by visiting our website at dynamic duel comm you can also email us at dynamic to a podcast at if you visit our website at dynamic duel comm you will also find a link to our merchandise store where you could find t-shirts and mugs and other merchandise with our no prize artwork on it including the Joker although I think this week I’m drawing creeper to tie into our last episode next week we’ll have another duel episode which is going to tie in to the upcoming Wonder Woman bloodlines animated film that DC is releasing so it’s gonna be Troya who is the sister of Wonder Woman if I’m not mistaken right vs. she-hulk who’s the cousin of the Hulk and that all leads up to our 150th episode where we’re pitting Teen Titans against the x-men right cuz Troy is a member of Titans yeah so join us next week as we go into that and find out who would win we want to remind you guys that we’re trying to get to 200 ratings on Apple podcasts and iTunes so if you guys can rate this show on that platform if you haven’t yet already please do so and if you have please share the show with your friends and family yeah don’t forget to also subscribe to us on whatever platform you’re listening on that way you don’t miss an episode special thanks to executive producers John Speas and boto winter and that does it for this episode up up and away true believers

Listen to Dynamic Duel: DC vs Marvel


A free podcast app for iPhone and Android

  • User-created playlists and collections
  • Download episodes while on WiFi to listen without using mobile data
  • Stream podcast episodes without waiting for a download
  • Queue episodes to create a personal continuous playlist
RadioPublic on iOS and Android

Connect with listeners

Podcasters use the RadioPublic listener relationship platform to build lasting connections with fans

Yes, let's begin connecting
Browser window

Find new listeners

  • A dedicated website for your podcast
  • Web embed players designed to convert visitors to listeners in the RadioPublic apps for iPhone and Android
Clicking mouse cursor

Understand your audience

  • Capture listener activity with affinity scores
  • Measure your promotional campaigns and integrate with Google and Facebook analytics
Graph of increasing value

Engage your fanbase

  • Deliver timely Calls To Action, including email acquistion for your mailing list
  • Share exactly the right moment in an episode via text, email, and social media
Icon of cellphone with money

Make money

  • Tip and transfer funds directly to podcastsers
  • Earn money for qualified plays in the RadioPublic apps with Paid Listens