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Dynamic Duel: DC vs Marvel

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Batman Returns Review Episode Transcript

Transcription of our Batman Returns Review episode.

Listen to our Batman Returns Review episode here!

Hi everyone marvellous Joe here at the top of the episode to announce the kickoff to our fourth annual charity fundraiser this year we are raising funds for a wonderful organization called pop culture classroom which helps promote literacy among young children through comic books and other innovative tools of popular culture I’m sure many of you out there learn to read or discover the joy of reading through comics so if you’re like us and feel this is a cause you can get behind check out the Facebook page for a dynamic duel DC verse marble to donate now the day this episode drops Tuesday December 3rd is known nationwide as giving Tuesday and Facebook will match your donation so there’s literally no better time to give a dollar or two than right now our fundraiser will end on Saturday December choose one generous donor at random to win original drawings of The Amazing Spider ham and what’s it the flash turtle drawn by Nathan Santa Steven happy holidays to all of our listeners and all the heroes who donate this season on with the show [Music] [Music] hi and welcome to the dynamic duel podcast a weekly show where we review superhero films and debate the superiority between Marvel and DC by comparing their characters and stat based battle simulations I’m Johnny DC and I’m his twin brother marvelous Joe and in this episode we are reviewing the Christmas film Batman Returns that’s a real Christmas movie unlike die hard which is you know just a sham Christmas movie oh look one more thing we disagree about but before we get into the review of Batman Returns we’re gonna break down the news from the past week of which there was none yeah there’s like no news you figured that like Thanksgiving week when you’re around all your family members would be a good time to drop some kind of news cuz word will spread really fast yeah it’s something to talk about at the dinner table but nope nothing we’re supposed to get the Wonder Woman trailer here fairly soon and I assume we’ll get the Black Widow trailer like immediately right after that so fingers crossed that happens here within the next week or so so we could actually have some legitimate news to talk about well we are going to talk about is CW’s crisis on Infinite Earths which starts this upcoming Sunday December 8th yeah that’s gonna be a huge event it’s like the end game of DC television exactly there’s gonna be a ton of characters and we’re gonna break down each character confirmed for the event in this episode as always the segment times are in our episode description so feel free to jump to whatever section you want to listen to big huge congratulations to Kyle Butler who was the winner of our comic book giveaway contest which you won by posting a link to his favorite episode on social media and tagging us on that post yeah he wins the four issue DC vs. Marvel miniseries from the 90s and we’ll have another promotion like that within the next few months here where we’re gonna give away the four-issue miniseries JLA vs. Avengers so if you guys didn’t win this time hold out hope you might win next time we also want to give a quick thank you to iron jorik Sarah holler and dad of diem re for giving us reviews on Apple podcasts we are currently standing at drumroll please from our last episode it’s amazing you guys totally showed up during this Thanksgiving week yeah you did it must be some kind of miracle worker out there I just want to thank you seriously it’s just amazing I wasn’t sure that we would make it to 200 by the end of this year now I actually believe we can yeah this is like the home stretch guys all we need is 14 more ratings on Apple podcasts or iTunes and at that point we reached 200 ratings and we are then eligible to become critics on Rotten Tomatoes we could totally do this do it we could do it I believe in this I believe in you guys so thanks once again to everyone who’s ready to us from the very start imagine a dynamic duel episode without us talking about this saying I can’t picture it but now that that’s done quick to the no prize a no prize is an award Marvel used to give out up until the 90s to fans our version the dynamic duel no prize is a digital award that we post on social media that Jonathan personally draws for those who we feel gave the best answer to our question of the week last week’s question was in regards to the Black Adam film that’s coming out in December of 2021 we learned that Hawkman and the JSA will be appearing in that film so we wanted to see who you guys would cast as Hawkman our first honorable mention goes to Darian Sykes who gave the answer of Sam Worthington and I haven’t seen Sam Worthington in a role in a while like ever since avatar he kind of fell off the face of the earth I saw him in that Terminator movie which was awful Terminator Salvation yeah I guess he was in Clash of the Titans he wasn’t quite a few bombs but he was great in Avatar so I think he would be a fantastic Hawkman Matt Rivera gave the answer of Gerard Butler and I think I normally would have agreed with that answer if we didn’t have the gods of Egypt film I never saw it was it bad it was bad and I’m a fan of Alex Proyas he’s a really good director that film was not good however honorable mention also goes to David Leal who gave the answer of Javier Bardem I could see Javier Bardem is Hawkman I like that angle because Javier Bardem is a Spanish actor and geographically the Iberian Peninsula is really close to North Africa where Egypt is so I think he could really fit in with the whole ancient Egyptian setting of the film and I’m sure it’s also going to be in the middle because Kahndaq is supposed to be like in the Middle East so yeah we know that Spain is not in the Middle East don’t add us we’re just saying we think you’d be good for the part Iran egami gave the answer of hugh jackman and i’m like yes let’s do that well I mean he played Wolverine and he’s retired from that now you and I have always thought that Hawkman and Wolverine have been similar so much so that we put them against each other in one of our previous duel episodes I think that’s why I really liked this answer Hugh Jackman he’s just a really good actor he could play in anything and we know that he could get buff for the role absolutely Isana faro monde gave the answer of Theo James and I forgot who this guy was but I looked him up and he’s the guy from the divergent series he kind of looks like a British James Franco with a goatee yeah I always call him Theo James Franco but he’s a little bit more broad I think he looks a little bit more action here we I think he could pull it off Jacob Bell gave the answer of John Krasinski which he’s currently killing it as Jack Ryan yeah he’s a total action star now you could totally pull out Hawkman if he can’t be kept in America sure Hawkman why or mr. fantastic I’d like him to be mr. fantastic too oh that’s right he would make a great mr. fantastic honorable mention goes to Geoff miles Jr who gave three answers he said shemar Moore who plays in Criminal Minds I think yeah and he would be great I think he should Mart Moore would actually nail this role but he’s a little bit up there in age now but an actor just like him I don’t think any more than Vin Diesel who Jeff Myles the junior also gave us one of his answers love Vin Diesel and the rock to just battle it out on screen because you know they’re gonna be battling it out behind the scenes right right right and and Jeff miles junior also said Sendhil Ramamurthy who was an Indian American actor I don’t think I’ve ever seen anything that he’s been in but he has a good look Neil poling gave the answer of Zeke Ozaki who’s in the show FBI I’m not familiar with him at all but he has a fantastic look he’s an Arabic actor himself he’s totally jacked the downside is that I’m not sure how well-known he is yeah he may not bring too much star power if they ever wanted to make like their own Hawkman film right Shannon Sanderson gave the answer of Michael Fassbender which is a horrible choice I guess he’s not magneto anymore right right I always like to see Fassbender and this comic book stuff and if you could pull off the magneto helmet he could pull off the Hawkman oh for sure for sure George kinetise and Salvador Martinez both gave the answer of Jaws have I done the John Cena meme yet on this podcast we’ve mentioned him a few times I don’t think we have well apologies to anybody who just got startled now I remember back in the day when they were casting Shazam you and I thought it would be a cool idea to have John Cena because at the time I think he was in the running for the role yeah we wanted to see like two wrestlers turned actors just like throw down yeah although now John Cena is in the Suicide Squad movie so I don’t think he could actually take this part now since he’s another DC character yeah we don’t know if it’s a shared universe yet but you might be right honorable mention goes to kelvin john de la merced who said that jason clark should take the role primarily because of his badass voice the jason clark is the actor who played in it comes at night using zero dark thirty he was in the Planet of the Apes film yeah the second one John Spees gave the answer of Ahmed Magdi who is an Egyptian actor I’ve never heard of him but he’s done a lot of work in Egyptian film and is hugely influential there I almost wonder if since Hawkman is a reincarnation of an ancient Egyptian Prince if you need the same actor or soul would be reincarnated in a new body for the modern era you can almost cast anyone then that’s true that’s a great point that’s a pretty cool concept actually you never have to worry about recasting nope and you could go back in time and do period films with Hawkman so much untapped cinematic potential with Hawkman character for sure for sure my Cusick he gave the answer of Jesse Williams he was great in cabin in the woods that’s still like one of my favorite horror films yeah he was fantastic in that you guys might also know him from Grey’s Anatomy our final honorable mention goes to Chancellor Martinez who gave the answer of Justin Hartley and I think of Justin Hartley I think of either Aquaman from the old failed mercy mercy reef or green arrow who you played in the Smallville series that’s right he’s played a couple DC characters now huh who knows maybe he’ll make an appearance on the crisis on Infinite Earths crossover oh yeah but the winner of this week’s no prize goes to Dustin Balcom who gave the answer of Michael B Jordan now I initially was against this answer because Michael B Jordan is kill monger and it’s been rumored that he’s gonna make an appearance again in Panther 2 and I don’t know if he’ll have like a recurring role if they’re bringing him back from the dead or or what not that being said if he gets really buff like how he does in the Creed films yeah I think that would be so badass to see him go up against the rock he’s actually like one of the few actors on this list that I think can go up against the rock now in terms of like physicality but in terms of like charisma and intensity yeah you want an actor who could potentially carry his own film one day so you need that kind of star power I think Michael B Jordan has every single thing that you’re looking for within Hawkman and you know there were rumors going around saying that he was petitioning to play Superman yeah he pitched Warner Brothers on a Superman film where he would be the starring character and if he doesn’t get that I think Hawkman would be a perfect choice absolutely I could think of very few other people who would be better for the role than him so congrats again to Destin Balcom you win this week’s no prize if you’ve the listener one win euro no prize stay tuned to the rest of this episode when we’ll be asking another question of the week with that out of the way onto the news [Music] okay as we mentioned earlier the CW’s crisis on Infinite Earths five-part crossover starts this upcoming Sunday December 8th five parts yes like five parts is it five hours long yeah in total it will be to start with Supergirl on Sunday then go to bat woman on Monday and then the flash on Tuesday December but then the shows go on there like winter hiatus and they don’t come back until January 14th really yeah be a cliffhanger yeah it’s gonna go for sure and then we’re gonna have a two-hour conclusion to the story with arrow and legends of tomorrow that sounds pretty awesome I gotta say I honestly can’t wait you may know if you’ve listened to our show for a while that I don’t really keep up with all of these CW shows it’s just way too much television but I do watch the crossover events yeah and I’ve been looking forward to this one for a really long time these crossover events have become like a tradition it’s like an annual tradition that they do now they’ve been pretty awesome I started off with arrow and the flash and a brave and the bold event and then after that they incorporated Supergirl and did invasion and that was with legends of tomorrow - yeah and then after that Lee did Elseworlds that was last year’s and that actually set up this year’s event crisis on Infinite Earths which promises to incorporate way more characters than they’ve ever had in an event it’s gonna be awesome it will be the largest superhero event on television ever I can’t think of how they could ever top this and it’s the largest DC live-action ensemble taking characters from other like TV shows and film it’s crazy the amount of actors they were able to pull from DC television and film history yeah they’re going all the way back to the 60s with Burt Ward yeah his version of Robin is gonna make an appearance in this event and he’d have to think if Adam West was still alive like he would as well yeah that would have been so perfect that would have been but there’s a lot of other surprises on the list of confirmed characters and we still don’t know who else is gonna show up because it’s rumored that there’s more that we don’t even know about of course Green Arrow is gonna make an appearance he has his own show he’s the one who started it all this is after all referred to as the arrow verse hmm Spartan John Diggle is also gonna make appearance although it’s rumored that it’s gonna be revealed that his real name’s actually Jon Stewart hasn’t that been a rumor for like a really long time though it has been but since this is arrows final season there’s my talk that they’re gonna give a nod to that fan theory okay okay Dinah Drake Black Canary as well black siren that’s Laurel Lance so you have like the two black Canary’s they’re nice Mia Smoak is rumored to make an appearance as the new Green Arrow of course she’ll be getting her own green arrow show in a few years with the two black Canary’s really oh that’s right yeah yeah she’s Oliver Queen’s daughter Connor Hawke who’s Oliver Queen’s son in the comics we’ll also be making my parents as will wild dog and Harbinger the character who plays John diggle’s wife in the show is coming in as harbinger and Harbinger played a big role in the crisis on Infinite Earths comic book storyline right right yeah she’s sort of the adopted daughter of the monitor okay and who is the monitor the monitor is sort of like DC’s watcher okay if that makes sense to Marvel fans sure yeah there I just translated it for you thanks man and the flash side of course we have the flash we also have reverse-flash who’s being played by Tom Cavanagh who will be pulling triple duty in this event he’s also gonna be playing Harrison wells as usual and pariah who’s Priya Priya in the comics was a scientist who like The Guardian Crona tried to find the origins of the universe and ended up creating like this huge cosmic evil okay I think this series is rumored that he’s gonna be the one who accidentally unleashed the anti-monitor so he’s who’s anti-monitor oh my fucking god he’s the anti watcher okay he’s on who destroys universes gotcha gotcha killer frost will be in the show as will elongated man vibe of course elongated man that’s cool well he’s been on the flash show for like two season oh and John Wesley Shipp who was the flash in the 90s TV show will come back as the flash as Jay Garrick flash with the bowl on his head know as Barry Allen the flash really he was Jay Garrick earlier in the series okay right I knew that but he’s coming back as Barry Allen yeah in his classic 90s flash costume that’s pretty cool I like that costume girl will be there as well Brainiac 5 martian manhunter Lex Luthor is gonna join the team real apparently okay I hope he has a suit oh like a war suit yeah that would be badass Lana Luthor will be there as well Superman Lois Lane and this version of Superman is the one that’s in the Supergirl television show right yeah Tyler hoechlin look is the actor plan okay yeah dreamer is gonna be there as well she’s a superhero on the Supergirl TV show Erica Durance is also gonna show up as super girl’s mother but she’s also gonna be playing Lois Lane from Smallville’s right because Tom Wellock is also showing up a Superman damn how many supermen are there gonna be well three I think because from legends of tomorrow Brandon Routh is showing up as the atom and the Kingdom Come version of Superman that’s so cool to see Brendan Roth back in the cape it’s gonna be awesome Superman Returns yeah we’ve already seen like publicity stills of him as Superman it’s great also from the Kingdom Come universe Kevin Conroy is gonna be playing Bruce Wayne /ban isn’t that awesome he’s the voice actor of Batman from the 90s animated Batman yeah he’s playing old Bruce Wayne oh that’s interesting see I don’t know why they didn’t cast him in the Titans television show instead of Ian Glenn right yeah I was wondering the same thing when I find out he was gonna be on this show are any of the Titans cast gonna join this no but it is rumored right now that star girl from the DC Universe series that will be appearing later on next year yeah it’s rumored that she’s gonna be in this crossover event oh cool okay so she’s gonna be making her debut here right exactly they should get the teens Titans and Doom Patrol that would be awesome that would be amazing you’d love that yes also from legends of tomorrow we’re also getting a white canary heatwave John Constantine Jonah Hex and steel Oh John Henry irons no no this is neat Heywood do you remember when we did commander steel versus Captain America yeah I touched on on Nathan Haywood okay in that bio it’s him he could turn his skin into steel like Colossus Colossus in this show at least not in the comic book gotcha we also have bat woman making an appearance ray I’m her new show yeah Black Lightning is finally coming to the crossover from his show Oh awesome yeah Ryan Choi is making an appearance as the Adam I think he’s gonna be replacing Brandon Roth as the character on legends of tomorrow but I could be are they killing him off uh yeah he’s leaving the show I don’t know if they’re killing him off huh but he’s leaving interesting Huntress from the birds of prey short-lived television series I remember that had to be in the series yes she was the daughter of Batman and Catwoman and she had like cat powers exactly yeah that’s right so the one Jim Corrigan will be on the show from the Constantine TV show that was also short-lived who’s Jim Corrigan the spectre holy shit yeah holy shit they’re gonna have the spectra on this yep Dean Alexander Knox the journalist from the Batman movie the Tim Burton film really yeah that’s not really a superhero but you know it’s a cool cameo huh and then of course we have the monitor and anti-monitor it makes me wonder the context of how some of these guest appearances are gonna show up I’m sure some of them are just gonna be like throwaway cameos but it’s still gonna be awesome to see them nonetheless yeah that is like the equivalent of endgame for DC just huge as cast hopefully they all come together for one big battle I’m still really curious as to who like these other surprise appearances are gonna be I’m thinking the odds are probably like Lynda Carter because she was on the Supergirl show for a while okay I want to see Swamp Thing in there yeah yes one thing from his short-lived show why not that weasel just get fucking everybody just everybody man that brings us to our question of the week what character from another DC show or film outside of the arrowverse do you hope makes an appearance in the crisis on Infinite Earths crossover and this could be from any DC television show or film that’s ever been made just let us know who you would be most excited to see show up post your answer to our Instagram Twitter Facebook or email us at dynamic duel podcast at we’ll pick our favorite answer and draw that person a dynamic duel no prize that will post to social media that really wraps up our new section again it’s gonna be a short episode this week let’s all put on our Santa hats and review the [Music] [Applause] so man returns as I mentioned earlier it was released in 1992 and it was the sequel to the tremendously successful Burton let’s be real you’ve probably seen this movie by now but if you haven’t it’s been decades there are better Batman movies out there you don’t have to watch it but I recommend you do if you want to get the most out of this review for me it was just cool to go back and watch it and just get all the nostalgia that I felt as a kid seeing it when it came out oh yeah these Tim Burton Batman films are just so loaded with a nostalgia it’s it’s ridiculous I still remember having the VHS tapes I still remember fast-forwarding through like their preview trailers that they had on VHS is oh yeah that’s right before then we would play the studio’s have put trailers of their upcoming movies before the movie right right right these Batman films were just a really big part of our childhood I remember specifically the Tim Burton ones that I guess once the Joel Schumacher took over even as a young kid I still knew that they were shit yeah yeah I really like Tim Burton as a director especially his older stuff again I really liked the film on the blast from our past podcast and we had a lot to say about it so check out that episode but I think it’s Tim Burton’s twisted gothic artistic vision that adds character to his environments and makes the characters themselves much more interesting absolutely it was almost like he was given more free rein to incorporate his gothic vision on this movie than the first one oh definitely I got heavy Nightmare Before Christmas vibes from this for sure which is interesting because I think this movie came out like a year before the Nightmare Before Christmas and so you could kind of tell that Danny Elfman was really into that like Gothic Christmas vibe with his music writing oh absolutely there’s like no better director composer pairing than Tim Burton and Danny Elfman but what’s great about Tim Burton is that characters like the penguin in the comics have always been kind of you know either silly or boring in my opinion but under Tim Burton a character like the penguin becomes much more sinister and frightening and and honestly like Matt Reeves has a lot of work cut out for him to make Colin Farrell as interesting as Danny DeVito was in the film yeah I don’t think Matt Reeves is gonna go the sewer monster out with his penguin which I’m actually looking forward to yeah let’s not they go like debonair mobster right and as much as I like the Dark Knight Rises Christopher Nolan couldn’t top Michelle Pfeiffer’s Catwoman with Anne Hathaway no freaking Michelle Pfeiffer is the best she is for a lot of people Michael Keaton is their definitive Batman you know even despite his inability to turn his head it’s a remarkable the impact that these characters have on people who have seen the film’s the legacy has been lasting absolutely everything from the music to the Batmobile to just the whole tone it has had the lasting legacy now not everyone appreciated these dark versions of the characters it’s pretty well known and documented that Tim Burton’s dark gothic version of the villains for this film sparked enough outrage amongst parents that the film became a merchandising nightmare McDonald’s toy stores couldn’t sell their Batman Returns toys and that’s pretty much white Tim Burton was replaced by Joel Schumacher for the planned third film yeah I don’t know if I would ever buy a Danny DeVito penguin action figure you just squeeze them in like black ooze comes out of his mouth real news action and he makes like a lewd remark exactly about his giant parasol jeez you know the film wasn’t exactly marketed as a kids film unless you include the Happy Meals but like a lot of kids are supposedly scarred by the penguin and yeah I could kind of see how these versions of the villains of the characters can be like horror film versions yeah like Catwoman here is kind of explicitly a sewn together Frankenstein’s monster version of the character right and the penguin is like this deformed sewer creature with the zombie eyes drooling blood and black sludge he was so gross it is really gross this is without a doubt the scariest Batman film and in fact I’d say it’s more of a horror film than an action film because let’s be honest Tim Burton can’t direct action he can’t know the fight scenes in this film are embarrassingly bad almost as embarrassing as all of the innuendo and one-liners throughout the film that was bad I like all the stuff that just went over my head as a kid like they have the word poontang in here and pussy yeah yeah I was like holy shit that didn’t even click with me I’m not sure how the actors who who by the way like they all did a fantastic job in this film right but I’m not sure how they even made it through some of the dialogue without like laughing or like questioning it right like eat floor did somebody say fish I haven’t been fed all day eat floor high-fiber there are some frankly cheesy moments in this or even maybe this is a bad time to mention this but my license has expired it’s like why why waste screen time like that yeah they started dipping into Schumacher territory here everyone thinks of the Joel Schumacher Batman films when they think of corny dialogue but I feel like that train started with this film yeah yeah and in that regard I don’t think that this movie quite lived up to the 89 Batman film no I agree yeah I still prefer that film to this one but just barely just barely compared to the Schumacher films though at least again those didn’t have all the Rocchi humor right Kelvin and the penguin are the two most sexually repressed villains in any comic book film ever you can’t get through a single scene without one of them talking about filling voids or being gentle because it’s their first time right though I guess with Catwoman you could argue it’s like a sex positive female empowerment thing uh-huh but I’ll get into that later when we talk about Catwoman first let’s talk about Batman so Batman Bruce Wayne was played by Michael Keaton you know one of the reasons Michael Caine is said to have left the role of Batman you know other than the departure of Tim Burton was because the Batman films were becoming more about the villains than the title character and he was right yeah especially in this movie it feels like both the penguin and Catwoman got more screen time than Bruce Wayne and Batman they did they did you know I don’t think we saw a Batman film truly about Batman until Batman Begins uh-huh because even with the 89 Batman you still had a lot of Joker in there right in Batman Returns the character is very reactionary to the villains actions specifically and that’s not good for a protagonist it makes them kind of boring and weak and I think the writers realized that so they tried to compensate by making Bruce Wayne weird or at least they try to imply that he was Bruce Wayne in this movie was kind of used for comedic effect he was every time he took off the mask he was like cracking jokes about Vicki Vale or vichyssoise being cold yeah yeah there was a few lines like where the penguin said Batman was jealous because Batman wasn’t and genuine freak and had to wear a mask and Batman’s responses you may be right yeah that was kind of like a pretty good bit of character development right there but it was pretty throwaway it was late yeah you know and and as an audience member I wasn’t quite sold like even when Bruce spouted lines about how he wrestles with duality or that he mistook himself for someone else I’m like Bruce Wayne acts the same as Batman when he’s Bruce Wayne there’s no like Clark Kent acting job going on there granted like he’d rather take an Iron Maiden’s slide to the Batcave even though the stairs are just as fast but that’s that’s about as weird as it gets with him in a way Bruce’s arc is simply to legitimize Catwoman’s arc in that he’s drawn to and empathizes with her yeah and by the end of the film recognizes that she was his equal that goodwill should be toward men and women like his lost love Selina but then again that arc would only makes sense if he ever treated Selina as though she wasn’t his equal and he never did that no he hit her in the face just like you would any man I mean he felt bad about it yeah yeah he did do that he didn’t so talking about Catwoman Catwoman / Selina Kyle was played by Michelle Pfeiffer and her character has the most powerful arc in the film in a way she’s kind of the protagonist of the story she’s the most transformative character by far yeah absolutely we get a glimpse of the Penguins origin in the film’s prologue but again the most amount of change transformation and the strongest message of the film comes from the character of Selina Kyle she doesn’t start off as a prostitute or a jewel thief like she did in the comics she starts off as a tragic lowly secretary rebuffed ignored insulted ultimately underappreciated and eventually straight up murdered it’s an interesting take on the character that has no basis in the comics she’s essentially brain damaged is what it seems like or maybe not even brain damage but awakened in some sense that’s a better term and like this all happened just because she was trying to get ahead in her career and in her life in general you know her resurrection is probably the most supernatural element of the Tim Burton films in any of them do you see it as a real resurrection because it’s kind of left ambiguous I think it is you don’t fall from that many stories and not die well is she the awning saved her barely she ripped right through those like really fast that whole scene was like pretty traumatizing yeah as a kid I remember that was kind of scary actually I was most freaked out though that the cat it was like biting at her fingertips yes yeah all the cats bringing her back to life you know it like strangely enough it’s almost as if a mother Nature herself was trying to write the injustice of Selena’s death with the cats and it was done much more effectively than it was with Halle Berry in the movie we don’t talk about that we’re never talking about that you know we’re gonna review that movie one day right that’s gonna be our last episode you know when we reviewed the Catwoman film that is gonna be our last episode the scene of Selena’s breakdown back in her apartment is probably the most powerful in the film yeah just seeing her lose it after the second message from the perfume company right it’s supposed devastating and empowering in a way yeah it’s cathartic she kind of like destroyed her old self to become the new self exactly her arc is one essentially of feminist awakening and in this scene with her shredding hair like stuffed animals and spray painting her idyllic dollhouse black she’s literally redefining womanhood and herself as a woman as one with the agency and skill and ability to craft her own powerful identity with a sewing machine yeah and you know hell hath no fury like a woman scorned it’s interesting watching these old movies through modern contexts because I was like oh this is such a progressive film in terms of like feminism and environmentalism right yeah it’s ahead of its time but really these social themes have been around forever yeah I think they’ve been around longer than most young people realize or recognize yeah and I say that as a young person we’re not that young not that old either mister but ask alamin cheese of course a villain you know she makes bad decisions she blows up buildings and she plots murders but she also saves rape victims ya know she brings the pain for sure all the way up until the very end when she kind of goes through her final temptation with Batman unmasked as Bruce Wayne offering her the fairytale ending the old Selina would have died for right she ultimately rejects that life and she can’t go back nope she pretty much says that explicitly that she can’t go back you know and she sacrifices herself to stick it to the man you know with the Taser yeah do you think she really has nine lives in this film or do you think that she’s just really tenacious I think you sort of have options she could be tenacious she could actually believe that she has nine lives she actually could have nine lives due to her supernatural resurrection yeah if that was in fact supernatural it’s all very ambiguous but that’s what I like about it I like that yeah yeah I do want to talk about her costume because it was like the one thing I didn’t really like about the character I know there’s a lot of fans of it out there uh-huh well I like the material and I like how it communicates a message that’s appropriate for her arc in this movie but if we’re talking about kattleman costumes I have to rank probably Anne Hathaway’s at the top for being the most functional yeah then Michelle Pfeiffer Michelle Pfeiffer’s then Halle Berry dude we’re not talking about her that doesn’t exist as far as you’re concerned okay okay but no I guess like when Tim Burton was originally sketching out the costume for the character he drew her as like a sewn together kind of doll figure almost like Sally from The Nightmare Before Christmas oh yeah so I think that’s where that came from see the parallels I really like the stitching wasn’t even real stitching it was like white marker on the costume it was like super super tight but yeah if you took off the stitching I think it would be a perfect kattleman costume Michelle Pfeiffer just wore it so well yes she did this is kind of a side note but watching Michelle Pfeiffer’s performance kind of made me think that that was the same approach that Kristen Wiig was gonna take for the cheetah character for the upcoming Wonder Woman 1984 film I could see that you know she kind of has the same fashion style in a way you know from the stills that we’ve seen so far kind of like transforms herself into this strong powerful woman I would not be surprised at all they went that route or at least were inspired by Michelle Pfeiffer’s take on the character yeah you know she was originally cast as Catwoman originally Annette Bening was cast oh wow Annette Bening would have been fantastic in this role I think so too she got pregnant during pre-production though so she wasn’t gonna be able to squeeze into the suit yeah so Michelle Pfeiffer was was cast after her I guess in that bending finally got her superhero role with the Supreme intelligence and kept the marble though yeah so the penguin Oswald Cobblepot was played by Danny DeVito and I love Danny DeVito’s performance in this film it’s just as good in my opinion as Jack Nicholson’s performance as the Joker absolutely he like really really sells it and the costume and makeup helped a lot they do buy it it’s so bizarre like I barely see Danny DeVito in this role really yeah well I mean like not very many actors look like him but like you see his other performances and I see nothing of the penguin in those that’s true yeah he’s a really good actor you know I was in charge of carving the Thanksgiving turkey this year I watched this film the day after Thanksgiving and when the Penguins wearing his like disgustingly dirty onesie you can see the musculature underneath and it looked just like the Thanksgiving turkey what did gross he’s like this deformed person that almost be sympathetic if he wasn’t so fucking horrible as a human being Danny DeVito had like no ego going into this role he was ugly and gross and said just awful things but he’s smart and charismatic and like how confident and funny he was like the penguin had no delusions about who he was or what he wanted he was like a fully realized version of the character even if it wasn’t one completely faithful to the comics yeah I do love how they used his umbrellas in this yes they did a great job those were awesome I love at the end when he grabs one he’s like shit grab the cute one as I’ve mentioned in a few of our Batman related duel episodes the best Batman villains are like corrupted mirror reflections of Bruce Wayne himself and one of the better foils has always been Oswalt Cobblepot it’s like what if Bruce Wayne’s parents were vile well then Bruce Wayne would probably end up like the penguin seeking vengeance not on the criminal underworld but upon the privileged and social elite of Gotham the Penguins grant plan in this film when he wasn’t being used by Max Schreck was to kill all the firstborns and Gotham yeah of course when Batman stopped those plans the penguin upped the stakes to Comic Book levels and his new bid to destroy all citizens of Gotham with rocket strapped penguins those were adorable they’re so cute I didn’t want them to kill anybody right only a madman like the penguin would now we’ve mentioned Danny alpha and the music composer for this film I think his penguin theme was the best theme of this film I liked Cattleman’s theme in this really yeah they were all really good but to me the Penguins was so like sympathetic and kind of sad yeah and dark it’s the theme that opens the film right and then it leads into Batman’s theme in the credits yeah I do like kellman’s as well because they did like the violin string like scratching yeah I get like the meow effects yeah that was pretty cool he’s just like really creative and vent and inventive with his the sounds that he makes for his scores mm-hmm the final character I want to touch on is Max Schreck played by Christopher Walken now I’m not sure how I feel about the character of Max Schreck I think that he’s pretty interesting in the first part of the film but he quickly becomes irrelevant in the second act and then all of a sudden he kind of shows up again in the finale but I don’t really think he’s necessary I’m not sure why he’s included in this movie other than perhaps Tim Burton just really wanted to work with Christopher Walken he didn’t want to work with Christopher Walken no no I guess like behind the scenes one of the filmmakers has said that Tim Burton didn’t want to cast Christopher because he was afraid of him and like watching this film I kind of agree like Christopher Walken is a scary-looking guy he is like he’s scary enough to fit in pretty well with the cast of characters like the penguin account woman without wearing a crazy costume well timbering later cast him as the headless horseman in Sleepy Hollow yeah probably because he’s a scary guy so of course max Shreck is an original character for the movie who was originally supposed to be Harvey Dent played by Billy Dee Williams really yeah that was in the first screenplay draft written by Sam Hamm Billy Dee Williams would have of course reprised his role as Harvey Dent from Burton’s first Batman film and at the end of Batman Returns dent was supposed to get tasered in the face by Catwoman which left him disfigured and finally transformed him into two-face who is the plant villain of the third film Oh interesting yeah I don’t know why Batman Returns writer Daniel waters replaced him with Max Schreck probably because Billy Dee Williams is way too charismatic to be a villain I don’t know he’s a pretty good actor I think he could have pulled it off ya know when Max was originally written he was supposed to be like the younger privileged brother of Oswald just unknowingly so hmm but the idea was scrapped as well I guess in a way max is kind of like the main villain of the movie in my opinion he’s you know the threat behind the penguin the rival to Bruce Wayne and the target of Catwoman’s wrath I just wish they would have named the character like carmine Falcone or Rupert thorne or something different yeah something from the comics they named him after a German actor who played Nosferatu in that silent film uh-huh I don’t know why well cause it’s creepy because it’s Tim Burton I guess and he’s all about that gothic horror stuff but Tim Burton didn’t name the character yeah but the writer was writing for his boss that’s true I don’t like the idea of him being the primary villain though because his plan was so lame he just wanted to build a power plant that would store Gotham’s energy but it’s never explained why well he was thinking about the future and his legacy and his son’s inheritance you know if you wanted there to be something in place for him I’m guessing that his plan was for a chip to eventually blackmail the city through the plants control of the city’s power well no it was stockpiling power so I think he would just be selling that power back to Gotham without them probably even knowing because it is a power plant after all it generates energy right all right let’s get into the story highlights the film starts off with the birth of the penguin in a pretty tragic setup Oswald is born deformed and seemingly evil and he kills the cat mm-hmm his parents are obviously you know they’re afraid of him pee-wee Herman it is pee-wee Herman it’s Paul Reubens he plays the Penguins dead and he would have made a pretty good penguin himself I think yeah you’re right he probably would have the role of penguins father was actually supposed to be played by burgess Meredith who played the penguin in the 60s TV show but I guess he got sick during production you couldn’t do it so again the Penguins parents are afraid of him they dumped him in a park River which leads to the Gotham sewers and kind of grossly to a penguin habitat in the Gotham Zoo where Oswald is raised by the Penguins it’s a dark set up for a film that a lot of kids see you know yeah for sure oh no now my parents are gonna dump me into the sewers it’s the mention later in the film days Walt became a sideshow attraction for a local circus and rose to power as the leader of the red triangle gang whose members include former circus workers now quick sidenote Robin was originally going to be in this movie played by Marlon Wayans right I heard that it was planned that his character was going to be a young member of the red triangle gang who decided to ally with Batman but the character was written out during pre-production I think they would have been cool to see and without that element I do find it kind of weird that the penguin is leading a gang that is circus themed when it that seems more like Joker’s by exactly I don’t think like the debonair penguin from the comics would be caught dead with you know carnival sideshow attractions right right you wouldn’t want to associate with them because he wouldn’t want to be associated with them right so after the prologue we flash forward 33 years and Max Schreck is trying to build this power plant despite Gotham’s energy surplus the city is attacked by the red triangle gang but Batman comes to stop them and save Gotham citizens including Max’s personal assistant Selina Kyle during the chaos shrek is kidnapped by the red triangle gang and taken to their leader the penguin of urban legend who blackmails Trek into helping him emerge from the sewers into Gotham’s upper class so meanwhile Selina discovers Trek’s plans to drain and stockpile Gotham’s energy for which she’s pushed out of window to her death before I being resurrected by the cats she crafts a cat suit after going back home and she becomes Catwoman and I love the part where she’s destroying her apartment she has that sign in neon letters on her bedroom wall it says hello there and she crushes the oh and the T and I becomes hell here like in the scene where she’s like finished her suit and she’s like I feel so much yummier yeah it was a silhouette against it yeah such a good scene so cool the cinematography in this film is just really really good there’s so many stills that I’ve come across just like in Google Image Search Results for this film uh-huh they’re just really well composed mhm and like well lit it’s beautiful to watch Shrek and the penguin faked the kidnapping and rescue of the Gotham mayor’s baby did you recognize the mayor actor no it’s a Warren Worthington ii from x-man three oh it totally is yeah you’re right yeah he’s been in both Marvel and DC films one of the proud the few but it’s this scene where the penguin is introduced to society and he’s allowed to access to the Hall of Records to seemingly find his parents but really he’s driving down the names of all the firstborn kids yeah Batman’s on to him already yeah he’s suspicious of the penguin and he discovers the Oswald Cobblepot may be involved with a red triangle gang who attacked Gotham though he can’t prove it now what cause does Batman have to be suspicious other than couple putt is a freaky looking dude is that prejudiced in action I think it is I don’t think he had any basis other than hey look like carnival freak show this guy is a carnival freak show one in one make two I don’t know he’s just a really good detective he’s also very discriminatory Selina returns to her office during a meeting between Bruce and Trek over the powerplants and Bruce and selina fall for one another yeah pretty quick really quick like Bruce Wayne was just smitten from the word go it’s kind of hilarious it is it’s like Oh another blonde mmm yes so Shrek starts a mayoral campaign for the penguin who is publicly favored in order to push forward his power plants and that seem just kind of showed how over-the-top the penguin character was biting that guy’s nose and just like blood was gushing everywhere right right and then talking about how he’s gonna like fill voids and stuff like that yeah uh-huh so dirty so strikes plan is to discredit the existing mayor by having the penguin let loose his red triangle gank on Gotham so as that happens as Batman stems the chaos he and the penguin run into Catwoman right when she blows up one of Shrek’s department stores Carroll wins successfully escapes Batman though are both successful in injuring each other no she gets him on the side with one of her claws and he like napalm her arm those are cool little bat gadget that I’d never seen before like why did he do that as opposed to just chucking a battery and get her I’m not sure like yeah like why does he have a capsule of acid just on his utility belt it was it looks just like the first thing he grabbed or was he like going for her face that could have been bad that could have been mad but she was trying to kill him well I mean he was dangling from her whip like he could have glided down pretty easily that’s true he should have just done that now regarding that initial cattlemen vs. Batman fight how suck-ass of a fighter does Batman have to be to get beaten by a woman with no previous fight experience and that’s not saying the action in these brand films is really really bad I’ve heard that like Sylvester Stallone and like John Claude Van Damme like really really hate the Batman movies because baman is so not physical yeah and yet everyone loves him as a hero it’s like no get someone who can fight get someone who’s like really buff don’t have someone just you know like rely on a suit and I think they kind of corrected that in Batman films later on like Batman Begins yeah yeah so Cowell win and the penguin form an alliance which was kind of a weird awkward scene calleman and the penguin form a plan which involves capturing Gotham’s ice princess framing Batman for her murder and then sabotaging the Batmobile to rampage across Gotham which was a pretty elaborate plan and I’m still kind of upset that the triangle gank was able to deactivate the Batmobiles like shields yes so easily how did they do that they just hit a button and awesome they hacked Batman system it’s like you work for a circus you didn’t go to MIT I really likes it like the little mini Batmobile that the penguin got in to like control the Batmobile his little over the time was absurd of course baman escapes the Penguins trap and he escapes police capture after gaining control of the Batmobile and this is almost like a precursor to what we got in the Dark Knight with the Batpod you know yeah well the Batmobile eject a smaller version of itself that’s the toy I remember getting my happy meal was the Batmobile that split in two and you got the central pod I think I had a penguin toy it was a penguin mobile kind of and had like a swirly hypnotic parasol in the front that we do remember that was the duck yeah it would spin as he drove it yeah yep after that Bruce Wayne uses recordings he had made of the penguin to discredit him in the eyes of the public and he spins the CD like a record that was not super dumb again it’s like using Bruce Wayne as comedic relief right CD technology was pretty well established by this point in history I mean it was in every household yet but had been out there for a while and everyone knows that a laser is not a needle right exactly so the penguin you know he was discredited he’s enraged he returns to the sewers and begins his plans to kill all of Gotham’s firstborn so at strikes masquerade Christmas ball which who does a masquerade ball for Christmas Tim Burton yeah exactly Bruce and selina show up and find out about each other’s alter egos just before the penguin crashes the party and kidnaps Shrek I liked that scene between Bruce and selina I think it was actually one of Michael Keens better moments yeah it’s nice being able to see him act you know without the cowl right right I do think the line about the mistletoe though is still one of the dumbest lines yes ever it’s stupid a kiss is deadlier if you mean it what the hell does that even mean and who the hell would eat mistletoe that’s what I want to know cats and who would just mentioned that randomly when they see mistletoe you needed a line that was like really out there in order to sell the idea that only they would say it yeah that’s the only reason I guess that works at all if it works at all so the penguin kidnapped Shrek Batman manages to stop the red triangle gang from stealing the firstborn as well as penguins retaliatory plan to blow up Gotham with his penguin army Batman tracks the signal from the Penguins to the Gotham Zoo where he and the penguin fight before the zoo gets blown up by the Penguins missiles in the explosions that penguin falls into a pool of toxic waste that he had intended for max Shreck he of course emerges from the waste later on and dies yeah that was super creepy great moment when the Penguins carried him into the water yeah I was like a funeral procession yeah although those penguins were obvious the little people in suits there they were wearing like fur not feathers right Kalman appears at the zoo to kill Shrek despite Batman unmasking himself in order to prevent her from doing so but why did he do that if she already knew who Batman was exactly that was pretty dumb on Bruce Wayne’s part I have to say he just wants everyone to know his secret identity yeah it’s like well now Shrek has to die yeah but Bruce didn’t watch Shrek today he was talking about how like no one’s above the law even though in this movie we see Batman killed quite a few people like you shouldn’t he be sending himself to prison for murder yeah the film has always been kind of controversial amongst like Batman purists because of that fact that he’s like blowing got people with bombs and stuff like that yeah and setting him on fire that was crazy yeah that’s like the first thing he does in the movie so Selina really saves his ass right here she absolutely does you know by killing Shrek of course with a Taser kiss but why a kiss why didn’t she just tase him why does she have to kill herself in the process I don’t know because she can that’s not a good reason now so with everyone dead Bru she returns home with Alfred he spots Catwoman but finds her cat instead though we do see Catwoman watching the bat-signal in the very last shot of the film which is a great shot yeah it’s a really cool looking shot so apparently that shot was filmed in post-production kalman was originally supposed to die at the end but Warner Brothers was so thrilled with Michelle Pfeiffer’s performance that they announced a spin-off Catwoman film in 1993 oh I did not know this yeah that film ended up getting kicked down the road and recast recast and eventually became uh-huh I don’t that we shall not talk about because it doesn’t exist so all in all the cast is great I think the music and the production of the film is great but the film really suffers from a weak protagonist and poor dialogue and perhaps it’s overly dark artistic vision for the villains I think it also had some major script issues as well not just in terms of the dialogue but in terms of like character motivations and kind of plot threads that lead nowhere like the whole power plant thing the whole mayor thing goes nowhere stuff like that I think there was a much stronger story to be told here I think it’s the result of bold writers working on the script yes there was some pre-production issues for sure with this film like initially like the mayor thing did they happen until the final draft of the film because the studio realized that the penguin had no grand master plan and it wasn’t even his plan it was Shrek’s right so I really wanted to give this film a high score I think it been a while since I had seen this film I just had really fond memories of it but after watching it again this past week critically it’s not as good as I remember it’s still enjoyable but it’s lacking a certain quality it’s not as good as the first film but still way better than the subsequent Schumacher ones absolutely I think it’s pretty middle-of-the-road honestly huh and that’s why I’m giving it three stars I also give this film about three stars which is you know it’s a passing grade it would be considered fresh on Rotten Tomatoes because that’s above sixty percent and three stars out of five is not to say that I did not enjoy the film because I actually really did I had a good time going back and revisiting this one but its flaws become more apparent the older you are when you see it yeah the older and wiser you are yeah but that does it for this review we want to know what you guys think of Batman Returns I’m sure there’s a lot of you out there who really really loved the film let us know if you’ve seen it recently let us know what you think of it by reaching out to us on social media or on Facebook Instagram or Twitter or you could email us at dynamic duel podcast at yeah that doesn’t for this episode our next episode will be our annual holiday charity fundraiser duel where we usually pit a marble-like cartoon animal against a DC cartoon animal we’ve done chipped the scroll versus rocket racoon Krypto the Superdog versus throg last year we did Detective champ versus Howard the Duck and this year we are going to pit the terrific whatsit who was a turtle with the powers of the flash against the Amazing Spider Hamm who is a pig with the powers of spider-man you may remember him from the spider-man into the spider-verse animated film that came out last Christmas yeah we think it’s gonna be a really fun matchup guys don’t forget that in congruence with this upcoming duel we have an actual fund raiser going on on Facebook again if you’re listening to this episode on Tuesday December 3rd it is national giving Tuesday in America in America so Facebook will be matching all of your donations that you make to any charity through their platform and if you search for a dynamic duel DC versus Marvel on Facebook you’ll find us you’ll see that our fund raisers pin to the top and you can donate to the pop culture classroom which helps promote literacy among young kids through comic books it’s a great great organization and one person that donates we will be selecting randomly to award artwork drawn by Nathan Santa Stephen of the terrific whatsit and spider-ham yeah you could donate any amounts to get in the running for the artwork but again the more you give the more it helps the kids think of the children please don’t forget to share subscribe rate and review our show with your friends and family we only need 14 ratings left on Apple podcasts on iTunes that’s so close guys anyway you could help us out with that would be much appreciated thanks to our executive producers Durant’s fees and boto winter and we’ll talk to you guys next week up up and away true believers

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